What is happening to our rights....

[snuggles]

....Don't get me wrong I think it's good to help people by helping them quit smoking but this is unacceptable in this country and I think we can expect to see more and more of it

sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/16/BUKG11A2VO.DTL&tsp=1

Howard Weyers tried the "carrot" approach by giving his employees incentives and encouragement to quit smoking. But when that didn't work, he resorted to the stick. A big stick.

Weyers, owner of a health care benefits administrator in Lansing, Mich., gave his 200 employees an ultimatum in 2004: Quit smoking in 15 months or lose your job. He refused to hire smokers. Ultimately, he extended his smoking ban to employees' spouses and monitored compliance through mandatory random blood testing.

Weyers' method, while effective, wouldn't fly in California because the state has laws that prohibit employers from making hiring or firing decisions based on employee participation in a legal activity. But participants in a smoking cessation forum hosted Monday by the Commonwealth Club of California found the idea nonetheless intriguing.

"We're talking about ending an epidemic. This is a global pandemic," said Dr. Julie Gerberding, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, likening Weyers' approach to controlling an outbreak of disease.

About 45 million Americans, 4 million of whom live in California, smoke cigarettes despite more than three decades of public efforts to encourage people to quit.

California, on both the state and local levels, has been at the forefront of anti-smoking efforts with laws to ban smoking in public places. A law went into effect in January that prohibits drivers from smoking when children are in the car. Still, smoking costs the state an estimated $8.6 billion in direct medical costs and $7.3 billion in lost productivity a year, according to the California division of the American Cancer Society.

In addition to lost work hours, employers have a vested interest in getting their workforce to kick the habit, given that they pay a large portion of health care costs and are the main source of health insurance for more than half the population.

At Monday's event, officials from the California Public Employees' Retirement System, the third-largest purchaser of health care in the country, said they asked the three health insurers that provide coverage for the fund's 1.2 million state and local employees to increase member participation in smoking cessation programs by 20 percent next year.

"We don't want to know if there's a cost associated with this. It's in (the health plans') best interest and ours to do this," said CalPERS spokesman Brad Pacheco.

Safeway Inc. announced that its Pleasanton headquarters will become smoke- and tobacco-free as of July 1, with the ban extending to all regional offices in Canada and the United States as of Sept. 1. Safeway already requires nonunion employees who do not participate in smoking-cessation efforts to pay more for their health premiums and is in discussions to extend the policy to union workers.

Safeway prefers to influence its smokers through incentives rather than penalties, said Larree Renda, an executive vice president with the grocery chain. "Our focus right now has been one of being supportive and trying to help people quit smoking," she said.

Renda took considerable heat from audience members because she works for a company that espouses healthy lifestyles but sells tobacco products. Renda said Safeway has no plans to quit selling tobacco because it does not dictate what legal products its customers should buy, and ceasing cigarette sales would put the company at a competitive disadvantage.

Meanwhile, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors is considering a law that would ban the sale of cigarettes and tobacco products in the city's drugstores.

Panel members had several suggestions for employers, such as providing benefits that cover smoking cessation programs, medications and counseling. A major hurdle to such efforts is the fact that employees change jobs frequently and typically have to change health benefits with each job.

California employers do not have to offer smoking cessation programs to employees. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger vetoed a 2005 bill by former state Sen. Debra Ortiz, D-Sacramento, that would have required health insurers that cover prescriptions to include coverage for programs to help people quit smoking. The governor, a cigar smoker himself, supports increasing cigarette taxes.

On the federal level, Congress is considering a bill that would give the U.S. Food and Drug Administration greater authority to regulate tobacco products. The bill, which is endorsed by Philip Morris USA, is controversial in part because it bans all flavored cigarettes except menthol, which are particularly popular among African Americans.

Smoking by the numbers
-- About 23 percent of American adults and 28 percent of teens smoke.

-- An estimated 13.5 percent of Californians smoke, the second-lowest percentage of smokers in the country, behind Utah.

-- Smoking costs California taxpayers about $15 billion a year in medical costs, lost productivity and premature death.

-- 70 percent of smokers say they want to quit.

-- 10 percent of smokers living today suffer from a smoking-related illness.


It's a good subject to debate, let me know what you guys think. I am still on the fence, I think it's good to promote non smoking but at what cost...we have a right to privacy and closed doors at home, or do we?

Let's have a little mini debate:D

Keep it clean and keep it nice please.

[ChatNoir]

I do believe this is just a basic tactical movement. Smart power mongers always needed a good enemy. For USA, it was communists then religious terrorism as well as Cannabis always had a place in this enemy list as well as alcohol was once on the list.

These days, they just need another enemy to fight with. This is cigarettes, yes cigarettes kill, smoking is harmful to health though fighting fire with fire always causes more harm than it prevents. Leaders are NOT idiots, they know this basic common logic pretty well though they need another enemy, Cannabis is slowly gaining upper hand and leaving the list where as people are not that stupid any more to believe in invisible weapons of Iraq, we all know the black gold, communism died long ago, they need a new enemy to fight with, to have profit from and to divert attention. This is the new enemy, smoking.

In the end, I do not believe in that people have rights, only the power mongers have rights and they use it to abuse others.

No hard feelings, no offence.

[snuggles]

None taken friend none taken. Good points. It bothers me cause if this works then what is next? Also employees spouses? C'mon now that's a bit much. You know the funny thing with tobacco is that the educational approach seems to be working, at least from what I read and I think it is great. Smoking is bad but I am worried about the consequences...in America we have certain privacys that are protected and once those are violated more will follow trust me on that, I can guarantee you some politician will abuse this process...guaranteed 100% it's the way it works here. You let them get a foot in the door and then a short time later the door is kicked in, destroyed. They are coming into our homes, and that's a no no here, if someone chooses to do something legal then so be it, but I will give him credit smoking kills. Now I have to quit LOL

[lyfr]

there is whole cities where smoking is outlawed where im at. cant smoke in apts, condos, parks, public, and you can be sued by your neighbors for smoking in your backyard. legally you can only smoke in your single family home, or your car with windows up!

[lyfr]

oops, guess i didnt answer the the? it doesnt bother me not to smoke in public places...i usually dont anyways. but when they come into my home(testing) i believe that is too much.

[MrPuffAlot]

what rights??

big bro took that away years ago. and next is our guns.

[Dadgumit]

there is whole cities where smoking is outlawed where im at. cant smoke in apts, condos, parks, public, and you can be sued by your neighbors for smoking in your backyard. legally you can only smoke in your single family home, or your car with windows up!

Whooaaaa......:shocked: ...

I don't smoke ciggy-butts, and although I'm sure we're all concerned about the health problems and diseases that smoking causes, I just can't support the angle that's being taken here.

As you know, major league sports teams include clauses in their contracts prohibiting players from engaging in "risky activities" that may cause injury to the player, and some of these stipulations are very specific. These players constitute investments by these entities' board members and investors and they consider it a part of protecting their investrment.

They began this prohibitive stance on the wrong foot as is by even suggesting that someone's spouse would be tested and held accountable too!?! As you said snuggles; once that line has been crossed the door gets kicked in and it won't be pretty (think "bull in a china shop" kind of not pretty!)

What's next? I've heard rumblimgs that some health insurance companies want to charge a higher premium for people who are overweight and/or require them to participate in a company sponsored fitness program. I've even heard that people who are considered morbidly obese could be completely dropped from their policy holder.

This plan further serves to disenfranchise select groups of people and widen the chasm between the "haves" and "have nots". It sets a bad precedent and I don't like the implications.

[snuggles]

Yep, obesity is the number one killer now....it encompasses so many health problems. Insurance companies are a fraud anyway, when you really need them they almost always have an excuse. I worked for a 3rd party administrator, insurance company, anyways we were not allowed to smoke on the premises. Fair enough IMO, no need to know if my spouse smokes, no need to police me away from the building, but you best believe all the parties had booze LOL, they had some fun parties and the owner would have health days, we would work half days and then we would have health seminars, even the number crunchers like me...I was an accountant in my previous life LOL believe it or not. Also it was the worst health insurance I ever had LOL how ironic. And how's this for security I had ever single persons personal info and nobody was watching us...everything on 1000s of people EVERYTHING and like I said I was just a number cruncher.

[Dadgumit]

You were an accountant? - :cool: How long?

That part about the access to med files - SCARY - cause not everyone who has access to them is going to be on the up. Insurance co's are the biggest phonies - health and car! I remember how (bleep) I was when I found out that car insurance co's use your credit rating to determine your premium - WHAT THE HECK DOES YOUR CREDIT HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR ABILITY TO NAVIGATE A VEHICLE AND OBEY TRAFFIC LAWS???

Sorry, but THAT one riles me!

[snuggles]

2.5 years LOL. Sorry but I had more info than just that...I even had SS #s. Most people are on the up and up IMO. Plus ripping people off is hard work, I never understood those guys, getting a job is less work and less stress. I hear you my credit got a bit dinged when I was at rock bottom but somehow I got a house so at least I got that much.

[Dadgumit]

Yeah, I'm not into the whole "identiity theft" thing! And I agree, most people aren't.

I haven't determined where I want to put down those "house" type of roots yet! LOL I rent my current place (wanted to get acclimated to the area first) but this is a "transition" point - not a stopping one. :)

[lyfr]

You were an accountant? - :cool: How long?

That part about the access to med files - SCARY - cause not everyone who has access to them is going to be on the up. Insurance co's are the biggest phonies - health and car! I remember how (bleep) I was when I found out that car insurance co's use your credit rating to determine your premium - WHAT THE HECK DOES YOUR CREDIT HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR ABILITY TO NAVIGATE A VEHICLE AND OBEY TRAFFIC LAWS???

Sorry, but THAT one riles me!ive heard of companies checking job applicants credit history and using it in their hiring decision also. seems if you were behind on bills you would want to work harder...JMO

[Dadgumit]

ive heard of companies checking job applicants credit history and using it in their hiring decision also. seems if you were behind on bills you would want to work harder...JMO

YA' KNOW?!?!

[snuggles]

ive heard of companies checking job applicants credit history and using it in their hiring decision also. seems if you were behind on bills you would want to work harder...JMO

It can also be shown that a person is lazy and therefore not for the company, but I see your side too...man sometimes people just get crushed with bills and they have no way out, it's sad but true.

[HMGanja]

All I have to say is this:

Im getting theEDIT out of this country as soon as I can. Maybe not even out of the country, but to a very secluded land.

[snuggles]

Yeah I think we all need to back off...it's my bad but it is considered political and it's against site rules. Maybe we should lock this or keep it aimed at maybe the work place enviornment only.

[ChatNoir]

In here, they do not care about if you are smoking or not... They just say

"Here is the job, your father is a known man, you will get minimum wage, you will have no insurance, no security, I will be able to fire you any time I want. Take it, or get the **** out of here!"

Maybe you are lucky that you still have some kind of insurance...

[snuggles]

In here, they do not care about if you are smoking or not... They just say

"Here is the job, your father is a known man, you will get minimum wage, you will have no insurance, no security, I will be able to fire you any time I want. Take it, or get the **** out of here!"

Maybe you are lucky that you still have some kind of insurance...

Yep, I got an extra bedroom LOL, Philadelphia isn't so bad friend it's the suburbs...you might like it here. I will tell you though you guys have some amazing stuff to see over there

[Dadgumit]

Doing some research today I again saw articles referring to the California Supreme Court's ruling that medical marijuana users are not protected by Prop.215 (the state initiative that allowed persons with a doctor's prescription to use medical marijuana) and are subject to firing or preclusion from obtaining employment because they would fail the drug test.

The company line is that employers don't want to do anything "illegal" in hiring persons who are breaking federal laws - so once more I am reminded how ambivalent and inept lawmakers are to the plight of people who use marijuana under permission of their state's laws yet are subjected to the Catch-22 of US federal law.

This is the just a small part of the challenge before us - THESE are the mountains that we must climb in order to receive the protections promised us by persons long ago. I don't just want justice for medical marijuana users - I WANT IT FOR EVERYONE! Regardless of who you are your right to make the decision to use or not to use marijuana is yours and yours alone!

Unless we organize this movement to reclassify/legalize/decriminalize marijuana EN MASSE we will continue to toil around in our respective states and peck at the crumbs of marginalized acceptance and half-granted permission that leaves us fractured, confused and oh so hungry for more.

When was the last time you received any literature regarding marijuana legislation? When was the last time you saw an ad spot or public posting of a community meeting regarding marijuana legislation? Why hasn't the internet been effectively used to: present the platform in which we stand; provide information on the laws, statutes and referendums that are on the books or are being presented before our respective local/state/federal legislators; inform users and non-users alike of the status of current medical and non-medical marijuana laws; provide ACCURATE information on the current non-violent drug related prison population; present viable alternatives to the current federal hard-line stance on marijuana (such a prospective models for successful legalization); and EDUCATE, EDUCATE, EDUCATE!

Most of what I have questioned can be found on the NORML website - and who knows where we would be if not for their involvement in the movement that brings millions of marijuana supporters to sites just like this day after day - but we have got to REALLY GET SERIOUS about banding together and getting involved in the process to create real change to our existing marijuana laws. NORML is advocating FOR US - why are we not doing the same? I, for one, am not content to sit idly by and (bleep) and moan about my frustration with "what is" and not do a thing about it. That GOOD PEOPLE like the members of this site have to hide behind avatars and psuedonyms to try and protect themselves from oppressive laws and the twins of prosecution/persecution is just intolerable.

Listen, I don't mean to offend anyone. I am the first to admit that I have been a negligent marijuana user and that I'm a neophyte to the whole marijuana movement and I don't profess to know any more or be any better than anyone else concerning this. But I'll be (bleep) if I just sit here and wait for that doomsday cataclysmic event to arrive that so many of us believe it will take for our government to change its direction and thus its position on mj! I will NEVER believe that I am a second class person - ESPECIALLY because I choose to use marijuana. I will NEVER believe that I am HELPLESS in confronting a politically motivated social wrong, or believe that any effort to create this so called "change" (I'm tired of that word too!) is a HOPELESS ENDEAVOR. I don't know what if anything I can do to help, but I have to try. It's not in me to continue smiling while I'm being stepped on...

I just believe that there is SOOO much more that I can do - that WE can do - to give power and presence to OUR agenda, and to not just be a passive recipient of those bread crumbs I was talking about...

Thanks everyone and take care.

[HippyInEngland]

Strange place to post this, anyone thinking of introducing themselves will see this and think they need to do the same :rofl:

[Dadgumit]

Strange place to post this, anyone thinking of introducing themselves will see this and think they need to do the same :rofl:

I don't want to alarm anyone with my little rant! LOL!!

Hey, could a mod please help me out and move this??

[BBFan]

Good points raised. I'm against any legislation that would prohibit smoking in personal spaces, as I am against any legislation that prohibits smoking canabis in personal spaces- well maybe not in cars. I'm also against any legislation that prohibits sky diving, eating fatty foods, driving a motorcycle, consensual sex between adults, or any other type of what may be construed as risky behavior. Where does it end?

Dadgumit- good post! How do you get the word out? The media isn't going to help you. But remember, as Margaret Mead once said:

"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has."

Someone's gotta lead- what should we do next?

[snuggles]

Strange place to post this, anyone thinking of introducing themselves will see this and think they need to do the same :rofl:

That's me at my best LOL, I'm the idiot who was supposed to put this in the coffee table section LOL. Of course I only noticed after you said something HiE:D

I still don't know how I feel about this, I understand that the gentleman that owns the company wants to send a message and he is in healthcare but are there better ways to do it? I originally started this in hopes that someone would make me lean one way or the other...I am against smoking, I do it, but in reality it is a bad bad thing IMO. I am also against testing your employees unless it's for safety reasons, like you drive the kids in the schoolbus etc.

I am responsible for the political slant, I should have never put the whole kicking the door in phrase in. We also all come from different areas and some countries are completely different in their views so I was also hoping to hear from some of our foreign friends (like Cornellius). As an employer how much can they really enforce, if you want the employees to quit maybe some seminars, maybe some more incentives, and a lot of education is something I would look at. Also I would grandfather it at this point, only hire non smokers from this point onwards, and smokers can't smoke on company property etc. But testing spouses is crazy, I think the man who runs that company needs to realize it's just that his company. His employees spouses are none of his business..although he does provide healthcare and it may cost him a bit more....like I said i sit totally on the fence on this one. Please keep it to office politics I did not realize what I was starting heree, you all have nice things to say and show a passion but I did break the site rules of no politics so let's help keep this to the office only. I belong to a couple sites and sometimes they blur into one another...meaning I might be at the "activist" section of another site and then come over here and kinda forget at times.

Like I said you all show great enthusiasm and some passion and that's great but I need to remind myself and you guys that the politics need to be kept to a minimum...it's OK to say things like WE need to educate but not the US Gov't is a bunch of so and sos and I am leaving...don't say that, instead come up with a constructive idea and if it is political we need to lay off, I am open to PMs hint hint but we have to respect the mods and MP himself...rules are rules. I am not lecturing anyone, I started it and I am taking responsibilty for it so please try and keep it to office politics. And like I said I think it's great to see so much passion at times but we need to practice restraint at times too...trust me I have a hard time anyone does when they have a passion for something. I'll go sit in the corner for a bit LOL

[Dadgumit]

Already got the message (Papa and I had a little talk and I can't write on the walls anymore! LOL)

I just got so danged worked up! - but I didn't mean to appear militant to anyone! I told ya it's in my blood!! LOL!!

[snuggles]

Already got the message (Papa and I had a little talk and I can't write on the walls anymore! LOL)

I just got so danged worked up! - but I didn't mean to appear militant to anyone! I told ya it's in my blood!! LOL!!

Yep it's tough but just remeber helping people grow is also good for the cause, the international one since we all come from different areas. Most growers and lovers of the plant can't help but get worked up, it's such a beautiful and theraputic thing and with that comes some passion.

Here's one I thought of, although it may not apply to this guy and his company and he may have something like this in place already, says he tried incentives. Ok here goes, lots of companies here in the states have gyms for employees. And most companies give you an hour for lunch, and you aren't paid for that hour, or it isn't worked into your salary. Well keep the lunch at an hour but pay the employees who spend X amount of hours in the gym every week. Meaning if you use the gym for say 2.5 hours every week you get paid for 5 hours of lunchtime. Also have little mini competitions, like a quitting smoking contest...the employees who do best get a free dinner or something for the family...small beans but still we all know how expensive it is to have a family night out. Maybe have a bring the kids to work day and have them write why they would love to see their parents quit smoking, maybe have a little gathering and have them read them aloud for all the "grown-ups". Make it a group effort rather than a we are taking your blood in 15 months and if you fail you are gone...it puts a lot of pressure on people with families which IMO leads to stress and a cigarette. From what I have heard education does seem to be making a dent in smoking. Maybe even hire someone who specializes in helping people manage and quit their smoking, sounds weird but I know it helped me with my drink, being able to talk to someone always helps me. Addiction is hard and too many times I think people use fear not realizing it is a disease of sorts. Would you threaten a diabetic if his diet was bad? I would hope not but you would try and help him get on track and I think people who don't smoke or have an addictive personality just think it's something people can control or turnoff. IME since I am an addict it doesn' work, taking things away or punishing, you need to understand the addictions and where they come from and realize that a person with an addiction is just like a diabetic...they have a broken part that needs mending or caring for it never goes away. And like I said punishment leads to stress which leads to trouble in an addict IMO. So I think even educating people about addiction is the way to go. I'll tell you I walked around with my problem and felt like a freak, a degenerate, a bad person, etc. As soon as I approached it as a disease or a problem with my body/mind I became well quickly. I now call it building character. I don't think I am any better than anyone else but I know I have done somethings that others can't...just as they can and have done things I may never do or be able to do.

I would be curious to know if the owner ever smoked himself. it's so hard to quit IMO especially if there is no common ground or understanding. I have a friend who is an alcohol and drug counselor, and she has never done either, I love her to death but she doesn't have the first clue, her intentions are good but I am a firm believer in addicts counseling addicts, I would say ex addicts but we all know once an addict always an addict, not to say that people can't get clean, they can but it is always going to live with them in some way shape or form. Addicts understand addiction and they know what games to play to get results. Plus people are individuals and all need different care too.

[Dadgumit]

Yep it's tough but just remeber helping people grow is also good for the cause, the international one since we all come from different areas. Most growers and lovers of the plant can't help but get worked up, it's such a beautiful and theraputic thing and with that comes some passion.

Here's one I thought of, although it may not apply to this guy and his company and he may have something like this in place already, says he tried incentives. Ok here goes, lots of companies here in the states have gyms for employees. And most companies give you an hour for lunch, and you aren't paid for that hour, or it isn't worked into your salary. Well keep the lunch at an hour but pay the employees who spend X amount of hours in the gym every week. Meaning if you use the gym for say 2.5 hours every week you get paid for 5 hours of lunchtime. Also have little mini competitions, like a quitting smoking contest...the employees who do best get a free dinner or something for the family...small beans but still we all know how expensive it is to have a family night out. Maybe have a bring the kids to work day and have them write why they would love to see their parents quit smoking, maybe have a little gathering and have them read them aloud for all the "grown-ups". Make it a group effort rather than a we are taking your blood in 15 months and if you fail you are gone...it puts a lot of pressure on people with families which IMO leads to stress and a cigarette. From what I have heard education does seem to be making a dent in smoking. Maybe even hire someone who specializes in helping people manage and quit their smoking, sounds weird but I know it helped me with my drink, being able to talk to someone always helps me. Addiction is hard and too many times I think people use fear not realizing it is a disease of sorts. Would you threaten a diabetic if his diet was bad? I would hope not but you would try and help him get on track and I think people who don't smoke or have an addictive personality just think it's something people can control or turnoff. IME since I am an addict it doesn' work, taking things away or punishing, you need to understand the addictions and where they come from and realize that a person with an addiction is just like a diabetic...they have a broken part that needs mending or caring for it never goes away. And like I said punishment leads to stress which leads to trouble in an addict IMO. So I think even educating people about addiction is the way to go. I'll tell you I walked around with my problem and felt like a freak, a degenerate, a bad person, etc. As soon as I approached it as a disease or a problem with my body/mind I became well quickly. I now call it building character. I don't think I am any better than anyone else but I know I have done somethings that others can't...just as they can and have done things I may never do or be able to do.

I would be curious to know if the owner ever smoked himself. it's so hard to quit IMO especially if there is no common ground or understanding. I have a friend who is an alcohol and drug counselor, and she has never done either, I love her to death but she doesn't have the first clue, her intentions are good but I am a firm believer in addicts counseling addicts, I would say ex addicts but we all know once an addict always an addict, not to say that people can't get clean, they can but it is always going to live with them in some way shape or form. Addicts understand addiction and they know what games to play to get results. Plus people are individuals and all need different care too.

I thinks those are excellent ideas for alternate (and gentle) ways to encourage people to take better care of thermselves. Let that person feel that they are a part of a community that cares, supports and is still there for them, especially when they are having a tough time walking the new path they've undertaken.

I would think that the perception of safety and support from their environment would be fundamental to the ease in which any addict addresses recovery or help; but I also know that some addicts can be very "creative" concerning maintaining their addiction and that seems to happen when the person feels forced to give up what has seemingly given them some sense of comfort for so long. In that respect, I agree that another addict (albeit one with a history of sustained recovery) should be the logical choice for counseling puposes having "walked the same shoed mile" so to speak, and able to know the tricks and manipulations inherent in the populations of each abused drug.

As you intimated, a goal in any transition is for it to "not hurt" as much as possible and your ideas certainly suggest that. As to why this hasn't been adequately implemented - :confused2: !