Holy Crap! Elliot's not freaking out this post.......

[Elliot Jansen]

Yes it's true... The tighty wound mad scientist has finally settled in.. After many hours in the lab I have allowed myself some daylight and to discuss a new twist on an idea.

First things first: I wanted to discuss my previous experiment on not feeding on a regulated schedule.. My results have been skewed because what I discovered was that underneath my rockwool a root mass had been growing previously unknown to me that had imbedded itself in water that does not fully drain from my feeding tub. Meaning that my roots had been submerged in water the entire time I wasn't feeding them.. Evidence that points to my hypothesis ( the plant will get/take what it needs regardless of how regulated your schedule is.) But does not nessicarily prove it. Further experiments are needed to determine reliable results.

Nextly: I wanted to show/tell an idea I had stemming from my pervious experiment. After I realized that my roots were sitting in standing water, I couldn't decide whether or not this was a good thing. I have read in previous posts that roots should not be submerged in water all the time, nor should they be allowed light. However my plants are growing off the hook despite constant water and roots peeking into T5 light. SO I came up with a compermise that may fit. And may fit any other lightly seasoned hydro farmer who hasn't already settled on a medium under the medium..i.e clay pellets, cocoa, rockwool sheets under 6x6 cubes.. I thought if I could keep my cubes up off of the bottom of the tub, and give roots some room to grow/breathe, my root system may benefit, as well as increasing growth potential.. (more roots + more nute absorbtion = more or faster growth). So I went searching for dark marbles, which I couldn't find anywhere, but I found something better I think.. I ended up buying polished dark river stone. They were about 2.29 per little package and I bought 6 packages I think. They were much bigger and cheaper than marbles. But the reason I went with them is because I thought that when the roots are drying they will search for water over the surface of the rocks which theoretically should have water beads on them from feeding and rockwool drainage. Once the root has sucked up that bead it will search for the next bead of water and so on and so on over the rocks until it finds standing water. In which time I will pick the cube up and put the entire root system on top of the stones to begin the entire process again. Plus some of the rocks are flat so you can easily cover up "peeking" roots.. Anyway.. Here's some pics of my plants and the stones underneath.. They will be 7 weeks on 27th and they are about 9in X 18in a piece.. Well I guess its back to the lab. Later.

[Tater]

Why not just use a layer of hydroton instead of river rocks. River rocks are not porous and won't hold any oxygen. Hydroton on the other hand is designed for that exact purpose. Coco coir or even more rockwool would be way better than river rocks not to mention a lot cheaper as well. Your head is in the right place you are just not using the right material for the job. Not only that but your roots are going to grow around and encompass those rocks making picking them up and putting the root mass back on top next to impossible without causing damage. You may need to go back to the drawing board and re think this one. Let us know what your results are.

[Elliot Jansen]

Hydroton? I'm not familiar with this medium.. The reason I didn't use coco is because I thought that it would make cleaning my tub damn near impossible.. Once the roots get imbedded in the coco, I wouldn't be able to remove my cubes from the mat, and that goes for more rockwool as well. I would have to line my tub with either of these to even make it worth a shot.. (And coco is not cheap by the way.. 32.00 a sheet is what they sell it around my block for..) As far as the stone being non-porous I agree, but I can't agree that the roots won't be able to get as much oxygen, seeing as the roots will be free standing on the flatter surfaces of the rocks.. They should be able to get plenty of air. But will the roots be able to grab hold of the rocks.. I had thought of this as well, and this will prove to be the determining factor of whether or not this is a good idea. The rocks are completely polished, and smooth as a baby's.....face. Because they are not porous or rough led me to believe the roots would not be able to take hold..only move across in search of H20.. In theory when I pick up the cube the roots will slip free from the air gaps between the stones and from the stones' polished surface...

[Elliot Jansen]

Today, my curiosity and impatience got the best of me.. I was thinking to myself.. "man it's too early to tell if anything is happening" "Leave it alone! Check it in another week.." But despite these thoughts I checked anyway, and what I found was quite impressing. Not only was new healthy root growth showing, but I could tell that the new growth appears to be following the rocks flat surface.. To me this evidence is still a little non-conclusive just yet but you can make your own decision if you have been following this thread at all.. Attached is a pic of the new root growth after 2 days. Notice how some of the new growth is growing at angles similar to that of the rock below it. Notice also, the difference between the new growth "peaks" and of the (old) root mass in the back right hand corner, which is what all my roots used to look like.

P.S. no roots were harmed in the making of this picture.

[massproducer]

so what is the goal here? Are you trying to make the plants grow faster then a conventional hydroponic system and medium or what are you trying to accomplish?

[Elliot Jansen]

Just playing with a different type of medium underneath my rockwool to increase root growth.. By allowing them to grow down and across the rocks in search of water. Versus having my Rockwool laying on the bottom of my tub and having them (roots) growing in a flat mass below my cube.. I am hoping to accomplish faster overall growth by having a more elaborate root system.

[massproducer]

If you are after more vigorous root growth then coco coir would be the medium that you want underneath your rockwool. Nothing compares to coco as far as water and air holding capabilities.

Yeah your river rocks are not porous at all, if something is not porous then it has no ability to hold air or water, they are more decorations. Yes you should see the roots growing around the rocks because they have to, although they would rather grow through them, but that is impossible. the flat surface of the rocks also is a disadvantage because smooth objects will not create the same air pockets as something somewhat jaggied, like pearlite, or vermiculite. Aslo coco coir is very cheap, I can get 2.3 cu. ft for around $10 including tax, so where ever you are getting your coco is majorily ripping you off. Coco will not be harder to transplant from because it has a similar consistancy to peat moss or soil, it basically just washes from the roots, while once the river rocks are envloped by the roots it is going to be impossible to remove them without major root damage, the roots will literally wrap around the roots looking for air and water, to transplant or remove the rocks you will probably have to cut some roots to try and entangle them.

I totally see what you are trying to do, but as tater said i am not sure river rocks are going to be what you are looking for.

But either way good luck

[Elliot Jansen]

Im having trouble understanding how roots would recieve more air in coco, then they would free standing with air flow moving thorugh the gaps in the rocks... I understand that coco and rockwool in very porous and when the roots become imbedded then they can recieve air from the medium itself.. However with my fans on theres is a constant circulation of air flowing around through and under my plants... Maybe someone could explain this to me.. And if you use coco, how do you clean your tank? I can't say for sure whether or not the roots will encompass the rocks.. And I would only like to disagree with people who know more than me very lightly, as you all know infinately more than I.. But from what I have seen so far, the roots are only interested in finding and following the water, not wrapping around the rocks...

[growdammit]

I agree with Tater. I put a big layer of hydroton under rockwool cube. Hydroton is pretty cheap and unlike coco it can be cleaned and reused on your next grow. It also will allow void spaces for oxygen to mingle!

[Elliot Jansen]

Well, 3 Senior members all agreeing on the same thing doesn't bode well for my experiment. So, I will give it a week and see what my roots do. I will document what happens whether it works or not.. If I hadn't seen positive results already, I would scrap the project immidiately. I do feel though that new ideas are always met with resistance from old customs..

[lyfr]

Well, 3 Senior members all agreeing on the same thing doesn't bode well for my experiment. So, I will give it a week and see what my roots do. I will document what happens whether it works or not.. If I hadn't seen positive results already, I would scrap the project immidiately. I do feel though that new ideas are always met with resistance from old customs..howdy E.J., gotta give ya props for experimentation, thats how all the other stuff was figured out. i used RW cubes on slabs for a while and the one thing i didnt like was plants were immobile. i thought about fillin the whole tray with hydroton and puttin cubes on those to see how that worked (i know, still immobile) but after doin soil for a bit i may go a different route ( like MassP's coco bkts;) ).
thanks for the pics, its always interesting to see what roots and such will do under different circumstances.

[DLtoker]

Elliot... Good experiment. I have done that before in my days of cloning madness. I put perlite between the tray holding the individual rockwool cubes and the tray at the bottom for drainage purposes. The plants like to be starved a little bit... Well, maybe not that, but left a little uncomfortable so they feel they need to grow roots immediately to avoid imminent death in the case of a drought. Thing is, the RH down by the roots is always 100% so it's not like they are going to shrivel up and die. This is just my theory based on my results. Continue on and reap the rewards man! :aok:

[Elliot Jansen]

Just a quick hitter observation that I noticed while pondering Senior Members views staring at my plants....:watchplant: I originally thought that the water would bead up over the surface of the stones.. The beads of moisture are actually collecting in the cracks where the rocks touch. I think this may prove to be important because the roots will have something to search for and find as they grow and expand across the medium.. You can kind of see an example in the lower left hand corner of the above pic..

[Tater]

Hydroton is just a name for expanded clay pellets. Keep us updated on your experiment.

[Aurora_Indicas_Dad]

the system i have right now was used for 15 harvests by a friend.he used nothing but coco disks in it and yes..it was a little dirty,but nothing a cloth and some hot water wouldnt take care of,as far as the res goes,the trellises were ALOT worst than the res.i agree with mass on this one. you'd be a hella lot better off using coco rather then them river rocks.but anyways,for the record, (speaking from experience)coco is no more harder to clean up then soil.

[growdammit]

I am with you on one thing Elliot, Expiriments are what makes us all learn and move to the next levels in this hobby. (yes I consider growin one of my hobbies and a darn good one too). If nobody tried new methods we would not be where we are today!

I say go ahead and grow out that river rock stuff, you can give it a cool name if you do strains like White Widow Rapid River or Mississipi Mango or Nile River Rhino or Blueberry Creek... I probably wouldnt do more than one grow with it... but....

I like using the clay pellets in a pot in a 5 gallon bucket that is plumbed to a 3 1/2 gal bucket with two airstones running in both bucket. It is easy to lift the pot from the bucket, set it another bucket and I can empty or clean really easy, refill to 4 gallon line, put plant pot back and plug it in. I especially like the fact that I can soak hydroton is bleach and reuse it later, only buying a new large rockwool cube to put on the hydroton each grow.

Everybody has their own method to success and thats whats so great about this site! Besides its hard to find people in your personal area you can actually talk with about expirimental grows let alone trust anybody enough to even tell them you are growing! Thank (insert your chosen religous figure) that MP is here!

[Elliot Jansen]

I debated whether or not to post this pic, because I don't want to burn people on giving minute by minute updates on Elliots roots.. But I think that this picture almost eliminates 1 possibility brought up by post'ers.. Bear in mind that I have shuffled my stones to make my plants even with the T5 glare, to get max penetration.

1: "The roots will encompass the rocks making it impossible to remove them without major damage".
This pic shows a brand new strong 1.0 -1.5 in root ripping through the RW, which is undoubtedly growing around the rock underneath it towards the water. While it may be true that the roots would rather be going through the medium than around it, going the long way around makes for a longer root. And the entire root ,when the flood comes, is capable of absorbtion. This root had stretched all the way to the bottom of the tub, and it was removed without any major damage at all. Also noted was some of the roots from previous days pic (left hand side) that had been layed back down on top of stones though bent, were not broken and continued on their search for H20.

Noted: it appears that the roots are poking through more where the rocks aren't than where they are. Giving them the benefit of no resistance at all to absorbtion of air. Almost all the new growth on the right hand side was taken from a pocket in the stones..

P.S. I don't know how much growth is to be expected in 4 days so its hard for me to judge how well this is actually going.. But I do know the facts.. My root structure has gone from 1 sickly looking mass underneath my cube to an explosion of healthy "peaks" in a matter of days.. So far I am happy with the results. I am anxious to see more evidence.

[massproducer]

What you are not seeming to understand is that when I talk about the root mat encompassing the rocks I don't mean 1 root in 4 days, I mean the entire root mat once the roots and more importantly the root hairs start to really grow. This would happen with any medium, river rocks, hydroton or whatever. It even happens in soil...The roots will always try and cover the most surface area possible within a given medium, this means that if the roots encounter an unfavorable area they will just try and double back and concentrate grow in the more favorable area, in this case that would be around the rocks, and the unfavorable place would be the standing water

[Elliot Jansen]

I understand MP.. I would like to stress, that I said "almost" in the above post. I believe that more time is needed before saying that anything involving this experiment is a fact, or what will ultimately happen to a developed root system in this medium. My logic is not based in doubt of any knowledge of the way that plants root. I can only state in my posts what the evidence suggests.

Roots are stretching in the path of least resistance downward in search of the standing water in the bottom of my tub.

And that no new root structure or the pre-experimental developed root mass has had the capibility to hold on to the stones thus far.

[Tater]

What exactly are you using to circulate air between the stones as you say?

Also your plants don't know that there is standing water below the stones. They are just doing their thing. Standing water = bad in a hydro system. It breeds disease. Like mass stated above your plants don't want to be in standing water and they would recieve much much more O2 if you were using hydroton or coco coir that is a fact period end of conversation. Remember just because something works dosen't mean that its working well. You say you are doing an experiement, if that is the case where is your control where you are properly growing your plants. And by that I mean no light getting to your roots, using conventional and proven methods of growing. I'd bet soil would out perform what you got going there no problem.

[Elliot Jansen]

What is circulating air in between my stones?
Fans. They are circulating the air in my grow room including the spaces in between my stones.. How do I know air is circulating in there, because I stuck my whole head down there and could feel wind on my face down there as well as the back of my hand.

Standing water = Bad in a Hydro system.
Well.. clearly. I don't know how many hydro systems you have grown in. But with the tub that I bought which is GH, it is almost impossible to drain all the water out of the tub, unless you lift and tip all the water to the front and down the drain. Which I do, occasionally, but there is still a small amount of water left in the bottom no matter what I do. Yes it can breed disease, but not if you clean your tub regularly which I do, which is why I won't use coco in the first place. Because I want my plants environment to be as clean as possible given the circumstances. And I'm not so sure that roots don't know that theres standing water down there.. Of course there is no way to actually prove that.. JMO.. I think that plants know exactly where their food source is and how to get it as a matter of plant survival. I think that they react to water in a similar fashion that they react to light.. Just as plants grow toward light, so as it is with water.. Anyone who does landscaping and has seen roots completely take over an irrigation system may be able to agree with me a little more easily.

Control.
My control is what my plants root system used to look like before I tried something other than leaving my plants sitting in the bottom of my tub. With 1 sickly looking mass of wispy roots. I wish I would have taken a picture before I started but I didn't. But it would have to have been pretty bad for me to take steps to improve their current situation, otherwise I would have just left it alone. The reason I don't have a true "control" group, is because it would involve one of my plants growing sitting in the bottom of my tub like I had it before, with less than average root system. And as far as me growing my plants properly with "no light getting to my roots" There is no light on my roots, besides a few straglers that get loose.. 97% of my root system is concealed by shadow and darkness. ( Not sure where you got that..) Whether or not its working well, I guess remains to be seen. I know my plants are happy and healthy, I know that it is working better than what I was doing.. Personally I am happy with the results so far.. I am documenting what I find so anyone following this thread can make their own decision. And maybe take what they see or learn from my "experiment" and try something on their own.. As far as the soil comment.. that's reaching a little Tater don't you think??? Like it's not even a fair comparison or conversation.. They are two completley different mediums, two totally different growing situations. One is a plants natural growing environment and one isn't.. not sure where you were really going with that.

New Pic.
Anyway.. here is an update on what my roots look like to date. As you can see.. Tons of new "peaks" and lots of fingers starting on the the bigger ones. The picture is a little fuzzy, but I ran out of batteries.. Gotta get some more. I will post a better one when I get some AA's. No roots were harmed in the making of this picture.

P.S. I have seen in a number of posts stating how my roots would be getting more O2 in Coco or Hydroton, but I still don't understand how.. I have asked for an explanation but still haven't recieved one.

[trillions of atoms]

if you want rootmass, go dwc! thats all i need to say ;)

[Tater]

Coco coir and hydroton both hold oxygen and water. One does its by creation the other by invention. Your roots are infact exposed to light and thats why they won't grow beyond your rockwool cube. You want big healthy root systems get them in the dark. And your fan won't do jack to circulate air between stones that your rockwool cube is sitting on. And sticking your face down beside it isn't a very scientific finding.

Why does everyone get so defensive when their ideas are challenged? Prove me wrong if you want to but I was serious when I said you would do better with soil especially if you aren't going to protect your roots from light.

[Elliot Jansen]

No one is getting defensive Tater. At least not me. Your previous post asked some very attacking questions and I addressed all that I could. I mean as far as the circulation thing, all I can use is the tools that I have to determine these things. Namely my own touch senses.. I don't have any sophisticated tools in which to measure how many ppm's are circulating under my cubes at any one time.. But just think for a second. If there was no fresh air down there would there be healthy root growth.. Compare the pics for yourself. I mean are you suggesting that stagnant air is trapped down there, without sufficient means of replenishing O2 or maybe I just don't get what you are trying to prove. That if my roots were in coco theyd be better off? If you read some of the other posts you would see an obsevation in which I stated that it seems that the roots are growing where the stones aren't. So they are basically hanging in the air absorbing it.. And Tater, I have to call you on this, they WILL grow past my rockwool. That is another reason I started all this because they were starting to grow out from underneath my cube INTO the light as I mentioned in previous posts. They are not growing out from underneath my cube perhaps because they have room to grow down now and because I won't let them. I don't have to be defensive about my ideas, because an experiment is just that. The findings will be what they are and documented regardless of what I say or think about them.

[tankdogster]

I like the idea of trying something new and experimenting. You are rising your rock wool UP out of the standing water in your tube right? Are you lifting your rock wool and exposing less to the feed water in flood? I'm just curious if it matters if the first inches of medium sit above the flooded waterline. Have a great Grow Elliot :)

[Elliot Jansen]

Due to multiple changes in my grow room, my experiment has lost alot of it's constants. I had to change my lighting, and I also had change my cut garbage bag set up. I originally had 6x6 squares on to to stop mold and light from getting through.. But since I added side lighting I had to drape them to the tub basin in 2ft strips to stop light from penetrating to gaps in the stones. I will update what my plants and root growth every once in awhile. But whether or not the experiment was a success, at least for me is still in the air. I would like to try again on my next grow and better document an entire grow with this method (at least one plant.) I only snapped a root or two in the entire process, and I think that was because I just ripped it up instead of gently lifting. Any way thanks to all who checked the thread out. Hopefully my next followed thread will be pictures of my massive buds. L8.