non-submersible pump question?

ZEM,
IF I understand your question, you MUST get O2 to the roots! A waterfall really isn't the most efficient way to do it. IF your pumps have the ability to draw air into the circulating solution, then adjust that to get a lot of air into the out going solution that enters your tray. Another option is to spray the solution into the air in the tray either through misters or sprinklers, but the air stones are still much easier to use.

I would run air stones in it the tray. I would run air stones in the central rez too. Most of the numbers I have seen thrown around here on the forum are to take the volume of the total solution system, multiply that by 2 and get an air pump rated for an aquarium of twice that size. For example, say with 5 buckets holding 4 gallons each, double that total of 20 gallons giving 40 gallons which would be the size aquarium you would by for. Of course a larger pump that you could reduce the output on would be even better.

ON the temps, the air temp isn't necessarily going to be reflected in the solution temps. If you have a basement or other concrete floored grow area, the rez temp will consistently stay lower than the air temp IF THE REZ SITS DIRECTLY ON THE CONCRETE. From what I've been told by botanists solution temps as high as 85F aren't harmful and temps as low as 72F are okay, but I try to stay between 78 and 82F for SOLUTION temps year around.

If this confuses you, please try to clarify your design and maybe we can get a better answer for you.

Great smoking.

i dont understand why everyone is confused with my design, it cant be simpler, the lid you see in the pic is for a tray that is always flooded at a certain level below the bottom of netpots with roots suspended in there, under this tray theres a control res with a pump. i was thinkin of using the sprinkler way in my tray that is over the water level i would have many outlets that sprinkle water to air it but i guess i will be doing this + adding airpumps, thanks

ZEM,

part of the confusion is you are adding information while we are trying ot post replies, which is okay and one of the drawbacks about posting on open threads. There is nothing anyone can do a bout that.

I argee that using sprinklers will help immensely and may remove the need for air stones in the tray, BUT think about this, how much of the sprinkled solution with lots of O2 is going to get down into the bottom of the tray versus just running across the top and falling back into the rez? Also, I know many, if not most, E & F growers don't aerate their reservoirs, but wouldn't already aerated solution be even better that slate not aerated solution, even in an E & F system?

My son used to mix his nutes in a 30 gallon reservoir and then hand water his soil pots and when he started running a large air stone in the reservoir his odor problems went away and his yield went up. A friend of ours does the same thing with a submersible water pump shooting the solution up into the air, but then you have to worry about the pump clogging.

What size is your tray and how deep is the solution in it?

Great smoking.

Your design may work zem but you are depleting the amount of O2 in the water faster then what your waterfall system can put into into. The same as over-crowding a fish tank..to many fish and not enough air and fish die.

For your system to work you would need massive flow/circulation of water with a much higher water fall with maybe some rocks for the falls to strike in order to break the surface tension of the water thus transferring more O2 into the water

Don i used to grow ebb&flow and i have noticed NO difference watsoever in using an airpump in the control res cuz when the drain is happening, air will be pulled into the roots directly. i have 2 trays theyr 25 & 35 gallons about 6"deep, i grow SOG btw. i have the pumps sprinklers and airpumps already, just need to set them up, so i'll do just that and maybe i'll try removing one airstone later to see if the solution is gettin aired then i might try removing the other and using only pump and sprinklers but i'm gona overkill with O2 this grow i wana see good results 1st and keep the experimenting 2nd

zem said:

i dont understand why everyone is confused with my design, it cant be simpler, the lid you see in the pic is for a tray that is always flooded at a certain level below the bottom of netpots with roots suspended in there, under this tray theres a control res with a pump. i was thinkin of using the sprinkler way in my tray that is over the water level i would have many outlets that sprinkle water to air it but i guess i will be doing this + adding airpumps, thanks

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but I still do not understand your system. You are confusing me by the use of the word "tray". DWC systems do not utilize a tray...what are the dimensions of this tray? How deep is it?

I also do not understand this statement AT ALL: "i was thinkin of using the sprinkler way in my tray that is over the water level i would have many outlets that sprinkle water to air..."

Can we maybe get some better pics of your entire system?

ZEM,

Your tray system sound rather like the old dam systems where the outlet was via over flowing the top of the damn. That resulted in"dead" water behind them because if they were big enough, the water came in on the top of the reservoir and flowed across the top of the body of water running out over the top o f the damn without mixing with the "dead" water down lower in the body of water. They now drain MOST modern damns from the bottom so that the water is mixed better so that the bottom doesn't become stagnant.

The biggest risk I see with your system UNLESS YOU USE AIR STONES OR SOME OTHER AERATING/MIXING METHOD IN THE TRAY ITSELF is that the solution in the tray surrounding your roots MAY become stagnant.

Great smoking.

DonJones said:

ZEM,

Your tray system sound rather like the old dam systems where the outlet was via over flowing the top of the damn. That resulted in"dead" water behind them because if they were big enough, the water came in on the top of the reservoir and flowed across the top of the body of water running out over the top o f the damn without mixing with the "dead" water down lower in the body of water. They now drain MOST modern damns from the bottom so that the water is mixed better so that the bottom doesn't become stagnant.

The biggest risk I see with your system UNLESS YOU USE AIR STONES OR SOME OTHER AERATING/MIXING METHOD IN THE TRAY ITSELF is that the solution in the tray surrounding your roots MAY become stagnant.

Great smoking.

Click to expand...

:holysheep: i can drain using the bottom hole to keep my waterlevel thats a great idea! why did i even make a hole in the side?!! thanks Don

zem said:

Don i used to grow ebb&flow and i have noticed NO difference watsoever in using an airpump in the control res cuz when the drain is happening, air will be pulled into the roots directly. i have 2 trays theyr 25 & 35 gallons about 6"deep, i grow SOG btw. i have the pumps sprinklers and airpumps already, just need to set them up, so i'll do just that and maybe i'll try removing one airstone later to see if the solution is gettin aired then i might try removing the other and using only pump and sprinklers but i'm gona overkill with O2 this grow i wana see good results 1st and keep the experimenting 2nd

Click to expand...

You absolutely need an air pump and air stones if you are doing DWC. However, this still sounds like an ebb and flow system--not a DWC. If your trays are only 6" deep, and you are draining them, I don't think this constitutes a deep water culture. When you start adding water misters, this is getting into aeroponics--not DWC.

zem said:

:holysheep: i can drain using the bottom hole to keep my waterlevel thats a great idea! why did i even make a hole in the side?!! thanks Don

Click to expand...

so now it is a flood and drain?

THG,

He appears to be using 2 common tray reservoirs for several plants with the central control reservoir located under neath them and then letting the excess continuously overflow back into the control/central reservoir.

It is very much like a simple control reservoir with separate bucket systems only he continuously circulates the solution from the control reservoir into the DWC tray reservoirs and lets the solution then free fall back into the control reservoir to control the amount of solution in the DWC trays rather than only adding solution when they get low.

It just dawned on me that the simplest way to explain it is that he is using "tray" in place of "bed" like we are used to hearing. Sorry for being so slow to comprehend the mix up.

Does that make sense now or did I just confuse trhings more?

Great smoking.

THG i'm not draining them, they just have a leveling system to keep the water level at about 6" when pump works, water falls back into res keeping the water level in ther tray. i dunno maybe they call it NFT but im sure its not flood and drain since the netpots are tiny with roots suspended IN solution all the time

Zem,

How are you going to control how much drains out if you put a hole in the bottom? IF your pump ever stops, then you are risking drying out your roots, which I think is a bigger problem than what we are dealing with, but that's just my take on it.

great smoking.

ya Don is right, that describes my system

I am use to hearing bucket and/or tote for a DWC. And once in awhile a controller for hybrid systems. What is the term bed in reference to in DWC?

DonJones said:

Zem,

How are you going to control how much drains out if you put a hole in the bottom? IF your pump ever stops, then you are risking drying out your roots, which I think is a bigger problem than what we are dealing with, but that's just my take on it.

great smoking.

Click to expand...

simple Don, the bottom hole with have a hose that is curved UP to where i want my water level! from there it exits and falls into my res if pump fails it will just stay at that level

A NFT system has a thin layer of highly oxygenated nutes flowing past the roots, you have 6" of slow moving water with the roots immersed.

THG,

Now we are really getting into semantics games. Using a sprinkler system to aerate the bed/tray/reservoir doesn't make it aeroponics. Areoponics, at least so far as I have ever heard is where you spray/mist solution on the roots and let it drain away without the roots ever being submerged. On the other hand DWC is any system where the roots actually hang submerged in a solution in some kind of reservoir. How you aerate the solution, circulate it or get O2 to the roots are subtypes of DWC. At least that is what I've always found in the reading I have done.

I've even heard of DWC systems where the entire bed/bucket/tray reservoir was full of solution right up to the lid and they bubbled pure oxygen into the solution to oxygenate it.

Great smoking.

Don we are on a mj forum tryng to help a fellow member grow mj, not lettuce in space. I have heard of many things, but people only remember the successes.

Don let me ask you a question, but have you ever grown mj indoors?

thats cool i know what to do, i will be puting a simple sprinkler system over the water level and using the bottom hole to drain + i will add 2 airpumps each with 2 poutlets this should be more than enough