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Old 04-05-2007, 05:42 PM   #1
Lonewolf
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Default Growing under all Flouros, yes or no?

I have been attempting to "sort the wheat from the chaff" on this one for a while. I've got 400w of veg bulb and (in total) about 450w of flower bulb for my plants utilising a properly appointed 3m high growbox approx. 0.5m sq (small I know). Can anyone out there with some experience let me in to what must be a bit of a growing secret (a friends bad advice may have just cost me the sex of at least three plants)? Is it the heat from HPS that makes the diff? Should I keep my frost protectors on daytime to boost heat (walls are matt not Mylar)? Combination growing has been suggested (one veg bulb one flower) but When I tried combining the two (for just a couple of hours one morning having switched one bulb back to veg the night before) they finished sexing (yeah, that was stupid) in two hours and left me with four plants only one of which is now recognisably female, however the "Soft Secrets" article he read suggested spectrum combi lighting would be better, what gives?
I quoted the guy who grew his AK47 under flouros only (and showed his pics) on another site, does anyone know who it was?

Last edited by Lonewolf; 04-05-2007 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 04-05-2007, 08:53 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolf
I have been attempting to "sort the wheat from the chaff" on this one for a while. I've got 400w of veg bulb and (in total) about 450w of flower bulb for my plants utilising a properly appointed 3m high growbox approx. 0.5m sq (small I know). Can anyone out there with some experience let me in to what must be a bit of a growing secret (a friends bad advice may have just cost me the sex of at least three plants)? Is it the heat from HPS that makes the diff? Should I keep my frost protectors on daytime to boost heat (walls are matt not Mylar)? Combination growing has been suggested (one veg bulb one flower) but When I tried combining the two (for just a couple of hours one morning having switched one bulb back to veg the night before) they finished sexing (yeah, that was stupid) in two hours and left me with four plants only one of which is now recognisably female, however the "Soft Secrets" article he read suggested spectrum combi lighting would be better, what gives?
I quoted the guy who grew his AK47 under flouros only (and showed his pics) on another site, does anyone know who it was?

Im not sure what you are saying.
But combined spectrum lighting is a good thing, but not absolutly necessary. And I dont believe it has alot to do with sex, I have heard that.

The "secret" is lumens, Floro's dont have the lumens needed for penetration for big fat dense flowers.
HPS is best for flowering, but ive used MH with very good results.

Keep your grow box at ~75 F regardless of what kind of light you choose.
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Old 04-05-2007, 11:26 PM   #3
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I'm not sure your spectral understanding is complete. However on the subject of lumens how does 200w of flouro compare to 200w of HPS or halide? How many lumens is 400w HPS/square metre (then I will be able to work out how much flouro I need/metre which is my current problem).
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Old 04-06-2007, 01:04 AM   #4
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I think a 200w cfl puts out something like 12000 lumens. The 250w HPS puts out about 28,500 lumens. A 400w HPS puts out about 55,000 lumens. With two 200w cfls you're using 400w and still getting less lumens than a single 250w HPS. HPS fixtures are a lot more efficient that the cfls will be. Go with an HPS if you can. You'll get better results too.
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Old 04-06-2007, 08:12 AM   #5
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Having bought the bulbs already (infact I've had problems -especially under the flower bulbs- getting the temp higher than 23c and these buggers can tolerate up to 38c and don't like to germinate under 24c) my current max is 24000 lumens then less than half the HPS! But is this to do with placement too? From what you say 250w HPS would do fine, bet it would get hot though.
Now de-mystification folks; during vegging 400w flouro o.k but up the wattage for flowering if using all flouros right? Infact I've been checking out the availability for Giant Edison Screw light fittings, at around 5 each I might be able to knock up another decent shade for around 15-20 (I have two spare 125w flower bulbs) or maybe I'll go HPS for flowering (need a ballast too though so that's a bit expensive for now).
Thanks for the info, straight talk always appreciated here.

Is there an all flouro using bud that can help here?



"200w envirolites with red for flowering and blue for grow or veg stages, Plants need light in the correct spectrum, which is proven to be between 400 & 700 Nana Wave, and Envirolites produce high output light in exactly this spectrum. There is no wasted light, unlike HID and HPS lamps were much of the light cannot even be seen or used by the plant.
Envirolites give 100% PAR (Photo synthetically Active Radiation) high output light and are used successfully for all propagation, vegetative or flowering stages."

So what does this **** mean?


and this....

"Light & Light Measurment

Light, its intensity, quality, its colour, spectrum, wavelength are therefore all-important factors, but how do we measure light and what are the most important components?

Light is measured in photons (which we, or at least I, do not really understand). Light actually hits objects, just like a spray of water, and the sun emits lots of light photons ~ to give you an idea of how many; the sun hits our body with over 12,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 photons every second and a plant needs about 20 photons to make a finished molecule of sugar.

So our scientists can count the number of photons hitting the plant and even predict how much of this energy will convert into flowers or fruits. Each industry has its own way of measuring light. Photographers use a light meter, the lighting industry uses lumens or lux and the gardening industry uses PAR. All are only measurements; the actual light coming from a lamp or the sun does not change ~ only the methods we use to measure are different.

Light Spectrums & Colours

Light from the sun is ideal but it's not the same as artificial light, where output quality, spectrum etc varies upon the type of lamp and how it is used. Many growers think that more lumens = better growth / yields, when in fact artificial light, even at its best in a HID or HPS lamp in not so good in terms of colours. Much of the light from the bulb is not used by the plant, mainly because it is not in the 400 to 700 nw (nanawave) spectrum, and plants can only see and use light in this range. Light quality and its colours are as important as lumens.

Light, as seen by plants is not a single colour but separate bands of active colours and the plant senses each colour-band of light as a separate signal. Each band of colour has a different effect on plants and the following are only a few of the functions which each band of light promotes.

Blue Light (350 – 500 NW) powers chlorophyll production, powers cell actively, energies the stomata movement and makes the plant follow light.

Green / Yellow Light (500 – 650 nw) ~ not much action from these bands of light.

Red Light (600 – 700 NW) makes sugar from CO2, powers chloroplast production, signals light and dark times among other functions.

Strong blue and red light photons (as above) are also needed for good carbon dioxide uptake.

The PAR scale measures all these coloured photons between 400nw & 700nw, the critical range for plants, as this is only range that plants can use light. If it is not in this range then it's wasted light.

PAR

For growers PAR is all-important ~ and as important as lumens! PAR stands for > Photosynthetic Active Radiation.

Photosynthetic, the light sensed by a leaf pigment.

Active, the light that causes the leaf pigment to become active for making energy

Radiation, another word for light & photon energy

PAR is a measurement scale used internationally as a metric light measurement and is becoming more and more relevant to growing and greenhouse light measurement. Why is it important to you?

PAR is the measure of light that a plant actually senses and uses, and it is the light the plant sees and can use that is more important then the actual output lumen of the grow lamp!

* A large HID lamp may give out loads of lumens, but if it's too far away from your plant most are wasted (remember light intensity diminishes with distance) In addition the light a plant can use from these lamps is limited because the plant cannot see or use it because it is in the wrong spectrum.

So the main value of the PAR measurement is that it is the only measure that takes into account the actual light and light colours that the plant uses to energise its pigments and generate sugar energy, and it’s the sugar that makes your plants grow and produce such sweet fruits!

PAR and Fluorescent Lamps

In the past fluorescent lamps were always known to have excellent 'daylight' colour output but not the same photon power as HID / HPS lamps. The spectrum from fluorescents was ideal for propagation/seedlings but not for real time growing, because they were small watt versions and did not have the lumen / photon output. (i.e. an average household fluorescent tube is only about 35 watts. Nice spectrum but low light output! )

HID and HPS lamps have large lumen / photon output but are poor on colours omitted, but these lamps were the best available lamps at the time. However they do generate lots of heat and can be expensive to operate. They also need separate ballasts, control contacts and systems.

Envirolite CFL Lamps (CFL = Compact Fluorescent Lamps)

The development of high-output compact fluorescent means you can now get the correct colour spectrum, always associated with fluorescents, but with much higher light output. This means that CFL's are now capable of much, much higher lumen output with all the benefits of the ideal, spectrum output.

Photon strength is still not as strong as HID Lamps (although with our new reflectors we are getting there) but because these new lamps generate much less heat they can be placed just inches of the leaves, and this is a very, very important factor when using grow lamps

Light Intensity

Light intensity diminishes the further it has to travel. This is the same for HID, CFL or your normal household lamp. If you hold a light meter up close to any lamp and then slowly lower the meter, even a few inches, you will see the light measurement reduces dramatically. (If you can borrow, beg, steal or get access to a light meter please try this ~ you will be extremely surprised at the rate at which the light intensity reduces over a short distance)

Light from an HID or HPS lamp reduces by half for every foot it is away from the plants. So if your lamps are 2' or 3’ above your plants much of the light is wasted. The problem with HID lamps is they are so hot you cannot place them close to your plants and much of the light, and your money, is wasted.

One benefit of using high-out put CFL’s is that they do not generate as much heat and can be kept almost on top of the plants producing the exact 100% PAR light, with no loss of intensity. So if you position these new lamps close to the leaves you get the benefit of 100% PAR light in the correct 400nw to 700nw range, giving the plant the correct light colours and light quality.

Envirolite Summary

Envirolites are effective, energy-saving, reliable, low heat generating horticultural grow lamps, giving excellent results and lower operating costs for all indoor growers.

Plants need light in the correct spectrum, which is proven to be between 400 & 700 Nana Wave, and Envirolites produce high output light in exactly this spectrum. There is no wasted light, unlike HID and HPS lamps were much of the light cannot even be seen or used by the plant.

Envirolites give 100% PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation) high output light and are used successfully for all propagation, vegetative or flowering stages.

Envirolites do not generate excessive heat and can be used directly over plants. This is the secret of growing with Envirolites, positioned directly above, just 3 cm or 4 cm, the top of the plants! Unlike HID lamps, this new generation, grow lamps will not burn your plants.

This is a real advantage compared to growing with HID lamps, as there is no wasted light, which occurs when HID lamps are positioned high above plants. Envirolites give 100 % PAR, correct spectrum, high lumen light directly on top of your plants - where they need it!

We are currently waiting for the independent results of a technical research program carried out by Sheffield University on comparisons (lumen, PAR, spectrum output, heat generation, operating costs etc) with HID / HPS lamps. The same research will monitor grow results using both types of lamps. We are extremely confident that the results of this research will surprise many growers and confirm that Envirolite / CFL lamps which provide high-output lumens with 100% PAR will become the next generation of light systems for all growers."

So O.K lets "cut throught the crap";
The answer we all need is to this question....
"If 400w/m sq of HPS produces 400-450g dry weight of bud for 55,000 lumens how much of this is within the PAR spectrum?
Once we know that we know how much flouro to use (n'est pas?).

Last edited by Lonewolf; 04-06-2007 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 04-06-2007, 04:05 PM   #6
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All that being said, HPS or MH will give better results than any Floro bulb.
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Old 04-10-2007, 05:16 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Growdude
All that being said, HPS or MH will give better results than any Floro bulb.

So much for the open mind. I have a feeling flouros will lead to a 15-30% lowering of grow costs. Check out "Spectrum Reflex".
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Old 04-10-2007, 05:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolf
So much for the open mind. I have a feeling flouros will lead to a 15-30% lowering of grow costs. Check out "Spectrum Reflex".
Now this I believe, also got my first look at some T5 floro and was impressed.
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:18 PM   #9
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My Enviros seem to have a tendency to scorch under the shade and stretch the plants at either end (esp. under blue/white). It may be and idea to back 'em off a bit next time, as a friend remarked "Envirolites are big compact bulbs not low-wattage strip lights" look to your reflector and ensure good coverage with enviros.
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Old 04-14-2007, 08:25 AM   #10
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Floros have come a long ways. The arguments tend to be stilted depending on who is selling what. Like when the Enviro web page talks about HID, they talk about 2 to 3 foot distances, worst case scenarios with no inline cooling. They're pretty neat, though, I like 'em. I've used little CFL's for vegging and they absolutely rock.
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