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Old 07-11-2016, 12:36 PM   #21
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Default ebb & flow vs RDWC

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Originally Posted by zem View Post
it is my favourite system, using growrock and a good control res, when done right, eliminates most if not all root related problems, as the plants are growing in air, I strongly recommend it, personally prefer it over DWC because it needs less equipment and tubing, no airstones less humidity less things that can go wrong, it is very easily automated with a simple timer, recycling is also very easy and is very clean unlike coco or soil.
You know what bugs me about E&F ?
That big rez sitting there bubbling and being cooled and no roots in there eating except for a drenching every 2 hours or so... seems such a waste...
I'm trying a hybrid:
I want to recirculate (RDWC) 2 inches below the pots and every couple hours flood to the neck and back down again (E&F)
Maybe once a day empty the tray completely but most of the time, some roots are in water.

nutty?

maybe not. I SWEAR I noticed a difference overnight when I started ebb & flo every half hour with plant tray (5" air for roots below pot)
and rez both being bubbled

4 minutes to fill to an inch up the pot, drains in 10 , roots sit in air maybe 15 minutes before it floods again
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Old 07-11-2016, 04:00 PM   #22
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Just have to keep plugging away til you hit gold-- we're probably only bronze right now!
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Old 07-12-2016, 08:31 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sopappy View Post
You know what bugs me about E&F ?
That big rez sitting there bubbling and being cooled and no roots in there eating except for a drenching every 2 hours or so... seems such a waste...
I'm trying a hybrid:
I want to recirculate (RDWC) 2 inches below the pots and every couple hours flood to the neck and back down again (E&F)
Maybe once a day empty the tray completely but most of the time, some roots are in water.

nutty?
remove the bubbler and the cooler altogether. all that you need is a little bit of circulation when you flood, make the overflow 4"+ above water level so that the falling water breaks the surface some. I place my res outside the chamber not exposed to the lights' heat. i flood every 2 hours when lights are on change every couple of weeks but that is dependent on grower and res size.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:13 PM   #24
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Zem, you don't bubble your rez solution?
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zem View Post
remove the bubbler and the cooler altogether. all that you need is a little bit of circulation when you flood, make the overflow 4"+ above water level so that the falling water breaks the surface some. I place my res outside the chamber not exposed to the lights' heat. i flood every 2 hours when lights are on change every couple of weeks but that is dependent on grower and res size.
no way, I've had pythium. My water temps never exceed 20.5 now
and you can't have too many bubblers
I do one flood in the middle of the night cycle
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Old 07-13-2016, 05:19 AM   #26
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Zem, you don't bubble your rez solution?
nope, i have 2 res's in my growroom about 200liters each, and 3 res's in my greenhouse about 500liters each, i have been doing this for a while, a bubbler in this system is useless, i even thought it helped the larvae to flourish, every couple hours the water is recirculated, I tried to let them catch pythium or any root disease in that system but failed. I even let them grow in growrocks that were barely cleaned from previous grows' roots, only had the rootball removed, with no ill effect
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Old 07-13-2016, 03:34 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zem View Post
nope, i have 2 res's in my growroom about 200liters each, and 3 res's in my greenhouse about 500liters each, i have been doing this for a while, a bubbler in this system is useless, i even thought it helped the larvae to flourish, every couple hours the water is recirculated, I tried to let them catch pythium or any root disease in that system but failed. I even let them grow in growrocks that were barely cleaned from previous grows' roots, only had the rootball removed, with no ill effect
the common denominator seems to be those big reservoirs.
So maybe I don't need bubblers and maybe I don't need cooling,
you didn't mention your temps, Zem

How often do you flood and drain? Is that what you mean by recirculating?
There's no recirculation in ebb and flow, how are you doing that?
extra pumps?
I found the two hour do nothing period between flows was driving me crazy
so I added pumps and level detectors to mimic RDWC during the lights on (level to a couple inches below pots, then both pumps run)
with a complete fill and drain every 2 hours (except during sleep)

What's the opposite of Keep It Simple Stupid?
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Old 07-13-2016, 06:03 PM   #28
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yes i recirculate every time i flood and drain, that is done by using and overflow hole at which the water level stops rising and flows back to the main res which is placed below so gravity takes care of the rest and creates a waterfall effect. i circulate the water only a minute or 2, then timer shuts off and the whole thing drains by gravity.
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Old 07-14-2016, 02:22 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by zem View Post
yes i recirculate every time i flood and drain, that is done by using and overflow hole at which the water level stops rising and flows back to the main res which is placed below so gravity takes care of the rest and creates a waterfall effect. i circulate the water only a minute or 2, then timer shuts off and the whole thing drains by gravity.
And you do that every two hours? So, for 2 hours the roots sit there and do nothing or certainly much less than they'd do in solution.
Bugs me too much, I'm changing back to RDWC,
water to level bottom row of hydroton, constant circulation
but I'm sticking with the foam :-)
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Old 07-14-2016, 04:55 AM   #30
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growrocks do wick water and they remain wet for more tghan 2 hours, so the roots are feeding. RDWC is a DWC with a control res
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Old 07-14-2016, 04:32 PM   #31
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growrocks do wick water and they remain wet for more tghan 2 hours, so the roots are feeding. RDWC is a DWC with a control res
oh, I see now, your net pots sit on the table... my net pots sit in holes that allow some of the roots to hang in the air between flows.
The roots that hang in air become corded (to hold up the roots in the water)
Some say it's just wasted space.
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Old 07-14-2016, 08:15 PM   #32
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That's interesting Zem. I guess the water absorbes enough oxygen from the air when the flood system is running the water up to the plants on the tables.
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Old 07-14-2016, 09:31 PM   #33
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That's interesting Zem. I guess the water absorbes enough oxygen from the air when the flood system is running the water up to the plants on the tables.
hush i have another theory, i think that the stagnant water that contains pathogens will not affect the roots in growrocks because they are too airy for any root disease to grow. i say that because i have gone for a few runs with no circulation at all and did not notice a difference.
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Old 07-15-2016, 01:20 PM   #34
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That's surprising. I would have to aerate my rez regardless. I couldn't stand the idea of not aerating, but if it works for you, that's one less thing to worry about tending to
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:53 AM   #35
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in my opinion, RDWC kicks the pants off ebb & flo,
is anything even happening during the ebb cycle? such a waste,
all I noticed was saving electricity with no stones,
growth was UNremarkable, but once they started sitting in bubbled water again, the plants exploded

My exercise wasn't a total waste though, I have big rezs now and that helps with temps and pH
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:23 PM   #36
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Sopappy, your plants exploded not from the bubbling water but from the correct nute mix. They consistently explode in my ebb and flow. Anyway, not all systems are suitable for all growers, I can't tell why this happened with you, but there must be a reason, other than ebb and flow. btw, i tried dwc several runs and plants exploded equally...
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Old 07-24-2016, 01:42 AM   #37
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There should be very little difference in plants grown in these 2 hydro setups. There are always variations that can change the way it must be done but if both systems are dialed in with ALL other variables being the same, the 2 methods should yield the same. It really comes down to the way the person does it, their particular environment, nute regimen, etc. The devil is always in the details.
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Old 07-26-2016, 02:06 AM   #38
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Quote:
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Sopappy, your plants exploded not from the bubbling water but from the correct nute mix. They consistently explode in my ebb and flow. Anyway, not all systems are suitable for all growers, I can't tell why this happened with you, but there must be a reason, other than ebb and flow. btw, i tried dwc several runs and plants exploded equally...
Could be, Zem. It's one of the conundrums of growing, too many variables.
I don't think it was nutes though, I'm weaker than the label.
The tray had at least 3 non-perfomers and I increased the time the roots were under water and put bubblers in the upper tray.
I did not recognize the plant tonight, 2 full days, doubled in girth I swear,
I wanted to take pictures, but kept putting it off.
(may very well just be part of the grow cycle and I'm noticing more now after a few grows.
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Old 07-26-2016, 02:16 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Hushpuppy View Post
There should be very little difference in plants grown in these 2 hydro setups. There are always variations that can change the way it must be done but if both systems are dialed in with ALL other variables being the same, the 2 methods should yield the same. It really comes down to the way the person does it, their particular environment, nute regimen, etc. The devil is always in the details.
You just made me realize I wasn't really doing ebb and flow, I didn't have net pots sitting in a tray, I had a tray sitting in a reservoir, lots of room below the net pots. in ebb & flow, I think the roots are always supposed to be in a medium.
It bothered me having the roots sitting in the air between flows....
so I filled the air with water
and didn't want to drown them so added the bubblers
the water still ebbs and flows, it's just bubbling & re-circulating too
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:02 PM   #40
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growrocks do wick water and they remain wet for more tghan 2 hours, so the roots are feeding. RDWC is a DWC with a control res
oh yah, the medium, forgot about that.

My conclusion is that the only thing that differentiates ebb & flow from RDWC (or DWC) is the way the roots get oxygen, one is with bubbles in circulating or stagnant water
and the other is sitting in the air with the added bonus of the rising and falling water level drawing out the old and sucking in the new.

Your system is simple and elegant, mine has too many pumps, level sensors, and bubblers all costing me more money but I like railway train sets too.
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