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Old 05-31-2009, 11:10 AM   #1
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Question Fox Farms -vs- Miracle Grow

First off, let me say that I am a first-time medicinal grower and I'm just trying to get a grasp on all of the techniques. I'm hearing raving reviews on Fox Farms products. However, I'm also reading online sources that say that the plants do not need as much nutrients as the FF products put out. From what I'm reading, Miracle Grow seems to have exactly what the plants need without the risk of burning them with too much NPK. Heck, MG even has a Better Bloom equivalent! I'm just confused as to what the big difference is in the two from an experienced grower's point of view: Which line of products puts out the best buds? I'm not going for profit here...I just want to smoke the best medical weed I can grow without tasting that harsh, fertilizer flavor.


Also, I was analyzing the feeding schedule suggested by FF, and it sure seems like I'm gonna be feeding my plants WAY too much! I mean, I did the math and everything...we're talking close to 50-60P in the 7th week? That just seems like a lot to me. From what other internet sources tell me, the plants should only need about 20-35P during that time (which MG provides).


Is there any real guideline to go by when it come to nutes?
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Old 05-31-2009, 11:20 AM   #2
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MG soil is very harsh on mj plants ,,,,a lot devolpepe probl;ems with nute burn as its has time release nutes that you cannot control ,,,but saying that a lot of succesful grows have been achieved with MG ,,,,but if you are new to growing ,i would suggest going with FF or a organic potting soil ,,,

also if you look at the bottom of this page you will see other threads on mg soil ...which may help you make up your mind on what to use
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Old 05-31-2009, 11:28 AM   #3
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Well, if I'm using FF soil, do you think it would be ok to use MG additives? MG's Better Bloom formula is a 15-30-15 blend...fairly bland, yet sustainable, right?

I just think that the combination of additives (3-4 per week) that FF suggest would cause more damamge than the ones MG puts out. Its so confusing! lol
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Old 05-31-2009, 12:51 PM   #4
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sorry Im a Fox Farm user..i only use MG on Veggie garden..


as of the 3-4 a week..well i have great results..run the way you want..but IMO if this is first grow..I would use a nute that is made for MJ..good luck to you
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Old 05-31-2009, 01:29 PM   #5
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i used to use mg, had decent results to start with then the problems set in, i guess a lot of the nutes in mg settle on the bottom and more of the nutes get concentrated in one spot. i now use fox farms and have no problems
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Old 05-31-2009, 01:54 PM   #6
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MG does not have everything a marijuana plant needs... Most plants do not consume as many nutrients as marijuana... Miricle grow does not have all the minor elements not even close, you would have to add magnesium, calcium, boron, iron.... just to name a few... Plus you will burn your plants with MG...

15-30-15 is not a good NPK for flowering marijuana plants it has too much nitrogen in it... Remember not to listen to non marijuana sites about nutrients because they are refering to a different plant... Also remember Fox Farm is all organic, MG is all chemicals... You can find pics of many awesome gardens on this site and none of them are grown with MG.... just say no and it will make growing easier for you...
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Old 05-31-2009, 02:43 PM   #7
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I just started a true test. FF ferts in FFOF soil -vs- MG dry ferts in a SuperSoil, perlite & worm castings mix. Same plant, clones, same size etc. when I started experiment. Keep your eye on this one for your answer: http://www.marijuanapassion.com/foru...ad.php?t=42756

I am NOT, and will NOT use MG soil however.
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Old 05-31-2009, 02:43 PM   #8
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Arrow Pray for Miracles but use something else to Grow...

FoxFarm's Ocean Forest is a bit 'hot' with organic nutrition but the only time this is an issue is with seedlings. While you may see some slight burning if you use FFOF with seedlings, MG can scorch the heck out of young plants. With seedlings you'll want to use a weaker soil or cut the strength of FFOF with non fertilized soil products such as FF Light Warrior. Once your seedlings are 4-6" tall and have a basic root structure established you can use FFOF for vegging. You probably won't need any added fertilizer for about a month although a couple of light fertilizer applications will help your babies get a wider balance of nutrition and kick them into gear a little more.

Most growers agree that weed grown in a quality organic soil with organic feeding will yield the most flavorful harvest. Lots of growers on here use FF Grow Big and Big Bud and there are many other feeding options you can learn about from growers who are using these products. I like Botanicare's Pure Blend Pro line of nutes and additives. There are varying opinions on how often to feed but I prefer to apply fertilizer every 3rd watering during the flowering cycle. The strength of the feeding depends on where the girls are in the flowering stage as mj is a very hungry plant and needs ample food supplies especially during the 4th and 5th week of bloom. FFOF is a ready to go, organic soil. I'd suggest getting some chunky perlite and mixing 3 or 4 parts soil to 1 part perlite. This will keep your soil draining well and prevent it from compacting as the grow goes on. There are other amendments you could add before your grow but OF can be used as is to get great results.

Foxfarm's Ocean Forest vs. Miracle Grow Potting Soil? That's like Muhammed Ali taking on Sylvester Stallone... The real deal taking on something trying hard to be the real deal...

Happy Growing!

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Old 05-31-2009, 03:19 PM   #9
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I have used both. The Fox Farms is Organic, a plus. MG is not, a minus. Fox Farms has more micro nutes, a plus. MG not so much, a minus (been awhile since I read the back, but I think not so much). Fox Farms has small numbers of nutes, i.e. 6-4-6 (may not be exact, the contianer is downstairs), a plus for adjusting nutes. MG huge numbers as 15-30-15, a minus IMO.

Only plus I can think of with MG vs. FF is MG is cheap and very easy to find, whereas FF is a bit more costly and may not be easy to find. I live in the boonies and yet can find it in two stores in town, tho this area grows a bunch of MJ yearly, legal and not.

I personally do not care for the taste of MJ grown in MG. Even with a flush.

"Foxfarm's Ocean Forest vs. Miracle Grow Potting Soil? That's like Muhammed Ali taking on Sylvester Stallone... The real deal taking on something trying hard to be the real deal... "
Agree with You Dirty...
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Old 05-31-2009, 04:33 PM   #10
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It is honestly great that everyone here loves Fox Farm products but what few realize is how discouraging that can be to most way rural areas that don't have local grow shops or hydro shops that you can just take a short drive to and tada a one stop shop ...

Out here in Montana I can't get Fox Farm stuff unless I order it online ...So product... plus shipping... plus added time makes that a rough deal...

Me personally I buy the best organic soil I can locally check it as best I can them amend and lighten it ...Sometimes that might mean certain MG products... but even Ed Rosenthal and Mel Frank recommend them right in their books ...

So good alternatives on how to mix good viable soil helps budding growers in My personal view ...

Myself I go by a chart in Mel Franks book 1 part perlite, 1part vermiculite ,4 parts organic soil , 2 to 3 parts local soil depending on how good and fluffy it is ...1 part worm casting ...1 part bark ...It saves money saves... shipping ...saves time

Though eventually as money allows I do want to try a DWC hydro setup ...But new growers have to go with what is in their area ...and also in their comfort and price level to start ...

And I think We as a community need to encourage that ...Hey a CFL hood is great to start under if that's what you feel comfy building and can afford...

Latter it makes a great veg cab and mothers area...Sure some have big bucks to spend ...but some don't like med patients on fixed incomes ...So encourage people help them start with what they got on hand... help them become comfy wiring and setting up rigs...

WE get good plants by raising good plants...Well it is true of Growers too we get good Growers by raising good Growers and teaching them our love of garden...

Tending and teaching them how to be Care Takers in the world ...then that Care Taker mentality flows into their daily life ...It is not just the bud and plant that is healing ...It is tending that garden in a peaceful time ...

Taking that active step to help yourself and others...Here I'm setting up shop in MT I'm having to setup shop to grow indoors and step back from the outdoor growing I loved in NC and was very good at...

Many handy tools did not survive the 2500 mile journey due to space restrictions ...and the need for liquid assets to get here...But and this is a Big But ...I'm still growing... I'm still going... and I'm still giving it My best shot...

Honest sincere growers step down from that higher level and mentor and teach budding growers on their level and encourage them to read.. learn... and grow toward the goal of independence ...

And That Mentoring is the Most Important Growing and Gardening we can give to others in our lifetime...

Though that,s just one Care Takers opinion

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Old 05-31-2009, 05:21 PM   #11
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I have NEVER EVER burned a seedling with MG. I might get 1 seedling out of 20 that will hardly grow but thats more because of a runt in the mix. I use MG and only MG because of price and how easy it is to get. But its still a great soil to use. The only way you can avoid the MG taste is a good long cure. Unless your using the soil for a 4 month flower period you will most likley not be able to flush the soil. My best tasting crop was a late bloomer and used all thenute in the soil so it didnt have that fert taste in it. I have used the weaker MG fert with my soil also, Its like 8-7-9 and that adds way to much N ontop of the percent in there. So there bloom fert wouldnt be a good idea. I have used the schultz one with the same ingrediants but only on an indica, A sativa will stretch like crazy with all that N. Indicas like being short so they dont react to it as much. If your new go with MG. It will grow a fine plant if you dont water to much and it wont hurt your budget. Check out my journal, They are all grown under 12/12 with MG soil.
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Old 05-31-2009, 07:38 PM   #12
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This is all very valuable info, and I definitely thank all who replied. But my main question isn't so much regarding the soil; I'm using FFOF and am moving into the stage of adding nutes. I'm more concerned over the difference between the available nutes that I can add in during the watering.

When it comes to the nutes alone, should I be ok if I use the all-purpose 24-8-16 blend of MG in the flowering and the 15-30-15 MG blend for blooming? And how often should I feed?

I understand that the plants need different levels of NPK during their different stages, and I just want to give them the nutes they need without over feeding them.
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Old 05-31-2009, 07:50 PM   #13
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start out slow with the nutes and work your way up, if you start seeing tips of the leaves yellowing then back off the nutes,u should be ok
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Old 06-01-2009, 12:32 AM   #14
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You do not want that much N in the mix. It will cause your plants to stretch and the buds wont be so thick. The other ingrediants are fine but the soil itself has enough N. N is the first number in the 3. With the soil having more than enough %.024 you dont need to add a fert that has %.010 nitrogen. But it will work, so if thats all you have it will work just start off using 1/4 strength and work up. I think thats what you wanted to hear.
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:41 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Owl
Well, if I'm using FF soil, do you think it would be ok to use MG additives? MG's Better Bloom formula is a 15-30-15 blend...fairly bland, yet sustainable, right?

I just think that the combination of additives (3-4 per week) that FF suggest would cause more damamge than the ones MG puts out. Its so confusing! lol
Ive used MG soil and fets for many years for general gardening, flowers and veggies with good results. But to tell the truth I have been a little dissapointed with MG soil for my MJ. It's pretty heavy and needs some lightening for good air-to-roots, IMO. However, I refuse to use Fox Farm stuff on gnereral principles, LOL. I think they charge a lotta money for a lotta stuff you dont really need. I mean...how many different ways to get nitrogen, phos and potassium do you need? And, as you said, the feeding schedule is aimed more at using a LOT of their product and buying MORE...for the sake of the stock holders more than the grower, I expect. I dunno...there's just something about their cutesy-wootsy marketing, the psychedelic packaging...clearly aimed at MJ growers, that just pisses me off. (Cha-ching, indeed...please) Evidently FF makes good products and many growers swear by them, but the hype turns me off.

But there's a lots of other mixes besides FF or MG! My next grow, I will either go hydro OR mnake my own organic mix. Im thinking of building a worm bin...

But really, MG doesnt suck if you Mix it with a goodly amount of perlite.You'll do fine. You might like to check out the info here and google on "Hempy Buckets"-easy, cheap and NO soil at all! Perlite and vermiculite, a plastic bucket and you're on your way. Id never heard of the Hempy Bucket when I started my grow (in MG soil), but just for the comparison, I made four Hempy's out of 2 liter soda bottles, put same-age, same size clones in MG and in the 2 liter bottles...and by golly! The plants in the soda bottles are a little bigger than the soil-grown ones and seem...I would say, more "vibrant." Anyway, something you can consider as yet another alternative. That the soda bottle plants are a little bigger and livelier may be a fluke or may be because I dont fertilize the MG plants, since the mix already has ferts in it, but I use Botanicare nutes in the Hempy's. I did add some MG all-purpose liquid once in the MG soil and yes, I did get some nute burn. If you decide to go with the MG sopil, Id be very, very careful about adding any extra nutes, If you do, start with maybe quarter strength, then gradually move up to half-strength, but full strength WILL burn them.

That's the reason folks dont generally like MG soil--the fact that the nutes are already IN it and you have to be so careful what you add to it. My Hempy's, on the other hand LOVE the Botanicare and I can control how much nutes I give them.



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Old 06-01-2009, 02:52 AM   #16
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MysticWolf-
I have seen acouple of your postings and like the philosity's you express!
Along the lines of " Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime! " , Excellent!
Sorry for jumping off topic here, just a personal note between friends.

My son lives in Mt, I was born there. Beautiful country.
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Old 06-01-2009, 05:10 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Owl
This is all very valuable info, and I definitely thank all who replied. But my main question isn't so much regarding the soil; I'm using FFOF and am moving into the stage of adding nutes. I'm more concerned over the difference between the available nutes that I can add in during the watering.

When it comes to the nutes alone, should I be ok if I use the all-purpose 24-8-16 blend of MG in the flowering and the 15-30-15 MG blend for blooming? And how often should I feed?

I understand that the plants need different levels of NPK during their different stages, and I just want to give them the nutes they need without over feeding them.


Hello friend...IMO..you dont need nutes untill 6th week with ffof..and you have the nutes in backwards order..The first nubers higher for Veg stage and higher second number for flower..as for the nutes go ahead and run with the MG just run a very lite dose..maybe 1/4 strength..The container will say how to mix..but thats for general gardening..I will also sugest you look in the organic teas..PM me if ya like I have some I like..get a grow journal going..let me know and ill helpo when and where i can..untill then take care and be safe
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:59 AM   #18
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Ah-Ha! It's all making sense now...
Basically, I just need to go slow with the nutes at first and then gradually increase the dosage as the plants grow. Oh, and I gotta watch out for any yellowing/curling of the leaves. Gotchya! And don't forget to check the Ph...right....

Now, just to clarify...I think I'm confused on what exactly the stages are. Is it:
1. Seedling/Cloning
2. Vegging
3. Flowering ("Blooming")
4. Harvesting/Drying ("Curing")

Right?

Ok, now. For my next question... My plant is now a 4week old TrainWreck clone grown in MG soil and is 8" tall. I need to transplant it into a bigger container and will be using FFOF soil. What amount of nutes, if any, should I use and when?

Man....who knew growing some good Mj was so freaking complicated!

Lass Chance: I COMPLETELY agree with your perspective of FF's marketing! What was really bothering me was their recommended feeding schedule and the numerous different products they suggested using all at once. I mean, my biggest beef was "Why can't they just sell one big bottle of all that stuff already blended up together if they expect me to use it all in conjunction with each other anyway??". IDK...profits...
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Old 06-01-2009, 09:15 AM   #19
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I like this thread...
I would love to use some FF but 1. Its not available where I'm at and 2. I cant really afford it at the moment.

So I was out today looking for something available and found a Schultz bloom which is like 10-54-10.
Is this way too strong or can I use it but just keep the feeding to a minimum??

Thanx
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Old 06-01-2009, 10:50 AM   #20
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Here's a basic "rule of thumb" to using any nutes on MJ whether it be organic or chemical. 1st start at 1/4 or 1/2 strength at 1st feeding. 2nd watch the plant to see how it reacts it will tell you what it likes. 3rd when ever you increase nutes do it at 1/8 strength increments and follow rule 2 until you see a slight "tip burn" on your leaf, now you have found what limits the plant can handle ( and this will be strain dependent) then back you nutes off about a 1/8 to 1/4 strength to avoid overfeeding and keep your pH adjusted to allow a drift of 6.3 to 6.8 to allow for max. nute uptake... I use FF nutes trio pack and follow their feed schedule and have never had a problem as long as you find their (plants) limits...take care..
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