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Bubble Hash & THCA/CBDA?

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I have come across something in my readings that I have some questions about. Apparently THC and CBD start out as THCA and CBDA. Both of these compounds are water soluble and inactive in man. Heating, and to a lesser degree aging and curing causes the extra CO2 to break away, leaving THC and CBD. Both of these compounds are insoluble in water and psychoactive in man. So, this has got me to wondering if the bud and trim should be decarboxylated prior to making bubble hash? It would seem to me that I am losing a lot of potential THC/CBD by not making sure the acids are converted to THC and CBC, rather than dissolved and discarded in the water.
 

umbra

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sounds like its time for an experiment
 

Hushpuppy

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I am only making an educated guess here, I remember reading something about that in HT where the glands that are still within the leaves, or any "free" cannabinoids that are still within the leaves could still be in the nonuseful state if the plant is not fully mature or if the leaves and/or bud from the lower portions of the plant are used.

but I would think that the cannabinoids (correct term?) that are retrieved from making bubble hash are only coming from what is stored in the exterier resin glands on the leaves and buds, and they should be mature enough that they are already converted. I didn't think that the bubble hash(or ice-water hash method) was able to remove any of the cannabinoids from within the leaves.
 

BBFan

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I think the question is how much thc is lost from the extraction because of water solubility. Ice water extraction is only removing trichomes by causing them to become brittle and to "break-off" during the agitation.

I really don't think the glands are dissolving in water. The thca and other compounds will decarboxylate during smoking or vaping.
 
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It is my understanding that ALL plants (even mature plants) have THCA and CBDA present. This is part of the reason that we cure--to let the THCA and the CBDA convert to THC and CBD. This is also the reason that marijuana should be carboxylated when used for tinctures and the like. The THCA and CBDA are water soluble and inactive in man. However, when you heat marijuana, the extra CO2 molecule breaks away and you are left with THC and CBD, which is not water soluble and is active in man. So, if you are soaking your marijuana leaves or bud in any kind of water, it certainly seems to me that you are dissolving and rendering useless the THCA and the CBDA that could potentially be turned into THC and CBD just by heating it.....or an I off base here?

BBFan--this is part of my thoughts here. When smoked or vaped, the acids (THCA & CBDA) are converted to THC & CBD. But with bubble hash, we are immersing the marijuana prior to heating it. So this brings up more questions about CBDA and THCA--do these cannabinoids reside in the resin glands? They are quite similar chemically to THC and CBD, I am thinking these chemicals are present in the resin glands right beside the THC and CBD and if so, when you put them in water....pooof.....gone.
 

warfish

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I like this topic.
So let's say you are able to convert all the THCA and CBDA into a usable form for your hash batch. The question I have is what quality would that THC be? We all monitor our amber levels so we can harvest at our preferred high. I wonder if the immature THCA and CBDA that is converted would really throw off the high you are looking for. I don't mind an up high but a total heart racing high is not what I am after. Maybe it is why the bubble hash seems to have a slightly deeper, or more relaxed high, than the ISO I make. With the ISO everything is basically dissolved right into the final product.
 
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I have read that part of the reason we cure is to let the THCA & CBDA change to THC & CBD. In addition, this is the reason that marijuana is decarboxylated if used in a cold tincture. So, is the amount significant? Or as Warfish mentioned, will this change the high to something you don't want?
 

BBFan

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The Hemp Goddess said:
BBFan--this is part of my thoughts here. When smoked or vaped, the acids (THCA & CBDA) are converted to THC & CBD. But with bubble hash, we are immersing the marijuana prior to heating it. So this brings up more questions about CBDA and THCA--do these cannabinoids reside in the resin glands? They are quite similar chemically to THC and CBD, I am thinking these chemicals are present in the resin glands right beside the THC and CBD and if so, when you put them in water....pooof.....gone.
Hey THG- Honestly my understanding has been that the trichomes encapsulate the thc and they are impervious to water- otherwise rain would dissolve them and wash them away. But I don't know.

Are you thinking you should try heating your trim before bubble bagging? I've always been happy with bubble as it is (love that pure trich taste)- do you think you'd get more or just more potent?

Like umbra said- experiment time. I have a bunch of cured trim and popcorn in jars that I'd donate to the cause, but you ain't even in my time zone. Hope all is well with you.
 
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Yes, I was thinking that decarboxylating the trim before making bubble hash may result in more THC as the THCA will be converted to THC and not simply dissolved in the water that is discarded. This is what started me thinking of all this: hXXp://countyourculture.com/2010/11/11/decarboxylation-of-cannabis/

"Decarboxylation of Cannabis

Natural cannabis contains a wide variety of phytocannabinoids, compounds which bind to cannabinoid receptors in the body and contribute to the high felt when cannabis is consumed. One interesting thing to consider is that the majority of these compounds do not dissolve in water, but were produced in a plant whose leaves and stems are saturated with water and require it to survive. So how were they biosynthesized in a plant if they are not soluble in water?

One proposed solution is that while in the living cells of the cannabis plant these cannabinoids are almost entirely present as their carboxylic acids which are water soluble.

Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)
Insoluble in water, active in man.
Cannabidiol (CBD)
Insoluble in water, active in man in conjunction with THC.

Tetrahydrocannabinolic acid (THCA)
Soluble in water, inactive in man.
Cannabidiolic acid (CBDA)
Soluble in water, inactive in man.

After cannabis is harvested and cured, these carboxyl groups begin to degrade, releasing CO2 and leaving behind the desired decarboxylated active cannabinoids. Drying, aging, and heat all contribute to break this carboxyl group down, which is why fresh cannabis is typically cured and then smoked for maximum potency.

But what if you’re consuming the cannabis in a different manner, for instance in brownies or in an alcohol tincture? Then additional care must be taken to ensure the inactive cannabinoids such as THCA and CBDA are decarboxylated into the desired THC and CBD. This is especially important with lower quality cannabis that has not been properly cured, and will likely contain significant amounts of carboxylated cannabinoids as a result.

The good thing is that it’s quite easy to accomplish. Most recipes recommend heating ground cannabis in oil or butter, or a layer of roughly ground cannabis can be put on a baking sheet and put in a pre-heated oven at 200°F (~93°C) for five minutes which will dry and heat the cannabis sufficiently to improve the potency of the resulting product. This is especially important for alcohol tinctures, which typically are not heated as part of the preparation process unlike a baked good such as a brownie."
 

umbra

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I was getting ready to make some green dragon for the holidays, perhaps heating it would be in order.
 

Rosebud

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I always heat prior to making tincture with alcohol or glycerin.
 
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Like Rose, I have always heated before making tinctures, but not until not have I considered doing it with bubble hash material. I really think that from now on I am going to decarboxylate everything prior to putting it into the freezer.
 

BBFan

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Let us know how your next batch comes out. You going to do a side by side to compare?
 

Budders Keeper

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Now you got the wheels turning in the old thinkbox. I'm not a scientist but...if THCA and CBDA are soluble in water and not active until decarboxylated, I'm thinking:

Soak some weed in cool water, dissolving THCA/CBDA into the "mix".

Slowly heat mix(decarboxylating) with choice of sweetener/flavoring creating tea.

In theory, this would decarboxylate THCA/CBDA leaving THC/CBD in your tea. If I understand correctly, this would get you "stoned" using only the water-soluble non-psycoactive THCA/CBDA(converted)?? Or am I way off.
 
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Budders--I think that might be right on. I always wondered how marijuana tea could have any effect (since THC is non-water soluble), but it does. Maybe this is the reason.

I am going to be making some hash for Christmas. I will try and do a little experimenting.
 

Hushpuppy

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Since I have been making hash for the last 9 months, I have been keeping the most of the material left over as I don't beat it to the point that my hash turns green. Some of my relatives that like to smoke the leaf get it and dry it out like tobacco to smoke it. They have told me several times that I am leaving behind a lot of THC since they still get a good high from it. I assume that the article that I read is at least somewhat correct that a certain amount of the THC and CBD is still held within the leaf and not all deposited in the trichomes. If these cannabinoids are indeed uncarboxylated then making a "green tea" from steeping the leaves(in boiling water) that are left from hash making might make an interesting tea. :)
 

Hushpuppy

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I just read an interesting article that pretty much covers this same subject. The article is called "Solvent-Free Hashish Alchemy" it is in volume 7, issue 4 of SKUNK magazine. The author talks about heating the bubble hash to completely convert the THCa and CBDa to remove the acid attachment and make the resultant honey oil more potent. An interesting read :cool:
 
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Thanks Hushpuppy--I look forward to reading the article. Gotta love something with "Alchemy" in the title.
 

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