cloning clones on and on and on

[GrewUp To ScrewUp]

what is the deal with cloning?my friend says you can only clone the plant about 57 times due to talamerise or talamarine or something he claims is the shoe lace of DNA. What i dont understand is if thats so true how the plant react to any loss of a part that could be cloned? How does it know it has a clone? He says the cells grow tired after 57 times but im not sure if he means 57 clones of clones or 56/7 cuttings off the original. he reference Dolly and i did notice she grew much faster. is that true of the cuttings? are there seeds likely to make a gene that makes their offspring grow faster? i just need answers!!


P.S. Sorry if i already posted this thread im on 24k so im not sure if the 1st thread got through.

 

[Elephant Man]

I don't think that could be true, I have seen mothers that were over a year old that had to have more than 57 clones taken from her during that time.

 

[Hick]

l think what he is talking about is cloneing clones of clones of clones. Eventually, over several generations of cloneing clones, they do tire and become less desirable, less potent, less vigor, less yeild. BUT..it takes several generations.."IMHO".
I don't think "56" is an established number of generations either. Since I usually keep a "Mother"(donor) plant for at least 1 year, that would make the "shoelace" good for about 60 years. Quite a bit longer than I hope to be cultivating herb..

 

[GrewUp To ScrewUp]

wow the legendary Hick, what an honor to meet you. *exstends left hand*


now im interested to know more about this lost vigor. Whats the science beyond it all. I take biology but my teacher is a real novice. I'm really interested in this topic. Now clearly when something is old its naturally out of its prime. Could it be that the issue withen the clone ranks no one is older then the original and that its only a matter of time since no matter when you clone it the clone has the DNA stating its getting old? That makes sense since its like a losing battle since no one gets younger in the process. like the bottlenecked populations. How early can you start cloning? And can any clones be made simply by planting roots?

 

[Biffdoggie]

I have been running the same continuous clone garden for some time with no mother and things have barely, if at all changed. It's been done parhaps 30 times. I can't tell you for sure one way or the other.

You can start cloning as soon as you have enough vegative growth to remove the desired amount of clones and you need actual cuttings, not roots to make clones.

 

[Elephant Man]

It seems there are varying opinions out there, I found a 'cut and paste' from overgrow posted by Mutt, I believe (on another forum). The article is about 'bonsai mothers' and is very long. I will post up a little snippet with the original authors name and a few lines about what he said about generation degredation.

'This Article was originally published at overgrow.com 27/6/2000. Revised and archived 20/10/03 by Oldtimer1.

Some of the quotes I have read in High Times saying that you get genetic degeneration by keeping mother plants long term, this is total rubbish!

Degeneration can certainly occur if a mother plant gets infected with a reversion virus. I will cover this later! The grass produced today from our mother
plants is just as potent and smells just as good as when it was first grown out from seed many years ago. In fact it is better now, we have better lighting
and superior growing techniques, allowing the clones to express their potential more fully.'

He also goes on to talk about a 15 year old mother!

'As an outline our mother plants are kept root restricted, i.e. using some standard bonsai methodology and techniques. It is an excellent method for keeping
mother plants long term and has proved a very reliable system since we developed this method some 24 years ago. The longest a mother has lived like this
without having to be replaced is just over 15 years. On average pure indicas need replacing every 3 years, hybrids every 4 to 5 years and pure sativas
every 6 to 7 years! Of course it depends on the care they are given! Male plants can be kept in the same way and in fact will stand more abuse than mother
plants.'

He also mentions something about 'making this issues deadline', must be afiliated with some magazine. Just food for thought, this is all pretty much over my head right now .

 

[Hick]

There are definately a wide perspective of opinions on the subject.
I'm only citeing "my" experiences. But my thinking lies right inline with grewup's post. I believe it has to do with "ageing".
I am not well versed in biology, and sure not qualified to argue/debate the subject of DNA degredation, but there are those that would strongly disagree with the statement that "it is rubbish".. that it doesn't occur.
I've read that "Bonsai" article. It's interesting. I relish learning others techniques and experiences. Though I've yet to try it.

 

[GrewUp To ScrewUp]

i understand u could have a plant for 15 years but if u were completely seed deprived id say this method is a bust. Sure you have a good sample you enjoy. :bong1: and sure its got longevity but if you have an army of clones at most you've only got them all for about 15-17 years. if they are all truly the same uve got group aging and then a very close group experation date. this article on any archives?

 

[cranky]

my mates had my sk 1 and bubbleicous going for over 3 years now.just as good as the first lot.i couldnt tell you what generation of clones they are.

if this is true that they do get weaker in some shape or form then i rekon its gonna take a long *** time. more than a few years like.

just my 2 bobs worth

cranky

 

[GrewUp To ScrewUp]

well my original question had to do with that weakening anyway. i wanted to know the reasoning for that.

 

[KADE]

well my original question had to do with that weakening anyway. i wanted to know the reasoning for that.

Lately I am cloning from clones... not taking any from my mothers.... and personally, after a couple years now... I see no difference in any way shape or form.

 

[Hick]

i understand u could have a plant for 15 years but if u were completely seed deprived id say this method is a bust. Sure you have a good sample you enjoy. :bong1: and sure its got longevity but if you have an army of clones at most you've only got them all for about 15-17 years. if they are all truly the same uve got group aging and then a very close group experation date. this article on any archives?

I think it's on the "Growers Resource" page grewup'

 

[DankCloset]

i no longer have an opinion on this, if its true, i dont care it dont apply to me, if it isnt true, i dont care, it doesnt apply to me lol. to much contraversy for me. i like plain hard facts.

 

[Hick]

i no longer have an opinion on this, if its true, i dont care it dont apply to me, if it isnt true, i dont care, it doesnt apply to me lol. to much contraversy for me. i like plain hard facts.

then it is a subject that you simply shouldn't reply to. Especially with false and or inconclusive 'opinions', or a guess.
In some cases, no reply is better than an uninformed speculation.

 

[DankCloset]

no not that at all, i have my opinions on the subject, iam just not gonna voice em because theres no real proof on either, that i've read anyway. its kinda like that grey area, like where iam standing lol.

 

[Lemmongrass]

I think for all intensive purposes, none of us will ever run into a clone failing to divide. I KNOW that animal cells do have a portion of dna which controls apoctosis, ensuring that the cell dies no matter what after so many divisions. this is to keep mutations from dividing wild, or in every day terms, becoming cancer.

This shouldn't translate over to plant cloning tho because the cells of new branches are just that, new. I think this would only take effect if you were like cutting chunks off the main stalk and somehow forcing them to root. i dunno, i cant even think of a way to clone and clone again old cells.

 

[NorCalHal]

I strickly use clone stock, and have for many years.

As far as a single mother plant that has been chosen properly, she will produce the exact copy of herself everytime, for years and years, with no degradation. Now, this can and oly will happen if she is kept in GOOD health and treated correctly.
First off, lets talk about choosing that "Mother" plant. I am not talking about the actual plant from Seed. The correct way to choose a mother is to flower out the "seedling plant, and take cuts from her, making those cuts the "Mother" plant. A cutting from an original S1 makes the best moms for harvesting clones.

Of course, if you let your mom slip and get "ill", then your clones from then on out will also be "ill". Degredation has started, and there is no turning back.

Another method of cloning that is very prominate here, is to take cuts from vegging plants and continuing that "strain" wothout keeping an actual mom.
This works well, but there are factors for sure.
As long as you are taking healthy cuts from a healthy plant, you can keep the "strain" going for years. I have personally seen this for many many years, with no mother actually involved. But again, it has to be HEALTHY, with absolutly 0 issues. A little easier said then done.

On the flip side, I have also cloned from unhealthy plants and the clone stock was never the same as it was before the "doner" plants became ill. After a couple of tries, we tossed out the strain, which we have had for over 8 years.
What a shame too, it was oneof my Favs, and I have never seen seed stock for it.

I hope that makes sense.