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Hydroponic Nutrients in Soil?

getnasty

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I searched and can't find the answer.

As many of you probably remember, when I purchased my MH, I also purchased a box of nutrients and such for growing. What I failed to notice is that the nutrients I was given were hydroponic nutrients, not for soil. The Fox Farm website lists the two different products at different N-P-K values. I'm curious as to whether or not I should be using these nutrients in this soil grow, using FFOF? Any opinions/facts?
 

OGKushman

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Chemical fertilizers vs "Organics"
As a student of botany and a graduate of the applied sciences let me very quickly give my take on the "organics" vs "chemical."

Myth: Organics use "natural" aka.: unrefined sources to feed plants so they are heathier.
Fact: Organics use complex elements that plants can't readily absorb without the further breakdown into more simple elements . This breakdown happens mostly when symbiotic bacteria established in the soil colonize on the complex organic food sources and attempt to break them down to support their own growth cycles. This process breaks down the complex food into elements the plants can use. ...so you rely on the bacteria in the soil to feed your plants.

Myth: Chemical or "Synthetic" nutrients are chemicals made by man and not as good as nature, bad for human consumption...etc etc etc
Fact: Chemical nutrients contain elements in their most basic form that are readily available for uptake and use by the plants. Nothing has to be broken down by bacteria because it is in a useable form for the plant...it is ready for uptake right away.



Now my take:
Organic fertilizers are very hard to control once in the soil as you have no way to determine the speed of the reduction by the bacteria; and what has not been broken down yet (accumulation).

I use GH3 chemical formula on everything from outdoor soil to indoor DWC with great results. But by far the best results would be achieved by using chemical fertilizers in conjunction with beneficial microbes. These two together create a perfect nutrient formula for uptake with a powerful "immune system" to defend off pests.


That's my say, and while it may be long...I have come to terms with this after many years of trial and error and refusal to believe that beneficials work in hydro.



Cliffs: Chemical ferts + Beneficial microbes = great success:rolleyes:
 

Grower13

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I use GH 3 part for my soil grows...... works great. I would think the Fox farm nutes would work great as well.
 

umbra

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OGKushman said:
Chemical fertilizers vs "Organics"
As a student of botany and a graduate of the applied sciences let me very quickly give my take on the "organics" vs "chemical."

Myth: Organics use "natural" aka.: unrefined sources to feed plants so they are heathier.
Fact: Organics use complex elements that plants can't readily absorb without the further breakdown into more simple elements . This breakdown happens mostly when symbiotic bacteria established in the soil colonize on the complex organic food sources and attempt to break them down to support their own growth cycles. This process breaks down the complex food into elements the plants can use. ...so you rely on the bacteria in the soil to feed your plants.

Myth: Chemical or "Synthetic" nutrients are chemicals made by man and not as good as nature, bad for human consumption...etc etc etc
Fact: Chemical nutrients contain elements in their most basic form that are readily available for uptake and use by the plants. Nothing has to be broken down by bacteria because it is in a useable form for the plant...it is ready for uptake right away.



Now my take:
Organic fertilizers are very hard to control once in the soil as you have no way to determine the speed of the reduction by the bacteria; and what has not been broken down yet (accumulation).

I use GH3 chemical formula on everything from outdoor soil to indoor DWC with great results. But by far the best results would be achieved by using chemical fertilizers in conjunction with beneficial microbes. These two together create a perfect nutrient formula for uptake with a powerful "immune system" to defend off pests.


That's my say, and while it may be long...I have come to terms with this after many years of trial and error and refusal to believe that beneficials work in hydro.



Cliffs: Chemical ferts + Beneficial microbes = great success:rolleyes:
Well not exactly. Since most chemical nutrients don't support microbe growth. While the nutes may not outright kill the beneficial microbes, they will not support their growth and they will eventually die. Since chelated nutes are readily absorbed by the plant, the need and use of microbes is not necessary. So yes you are right that the hydro nutes can be used in soil, your cliff notes version of the difference between organics and chem nutes growth is...rudimentary at best. Because it seems the most important aspects of organic gardening is completely missed in your explanation. Organic gardening is not about throwing a bunch of organic compounds in your dirt and saying, "look at my organics". You feed the soil and not the plant. Organics is about the soil being a living organism, and not a sterile medium, to which you add the exact NPK amount and then you're done. With the organics, you are creating a complete micro cosmos that starts with single cell microbes that feed larger more complex microbes, and so forth. When a plant grows and needs N, the root hairs in the rhizosphere release chemical signals that the microbes then release the N in a chelated form to the plant. Whereas, the chemical nutrients in most commericial fertilizers are petrochemical derivatives and are in fact pollutants.
 
R

Roddy

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But by far the best results would be achieved by using chemical fertilizers in conjunction with beneficial microbes.

Chem nutes kill the microbes, so this is false.

Microbes make up the majority of soil life in nature. Bacteria, fungus, nematodes, algie and many other micro organisms live in soil. In these tests I was primarily concerned with Bacteria and fungus. Bacteria are usually single celled creatures that prefer generally higher pH environments. There are literally billions and billions of them, some thrive in low oxygen soil (anaerobic) and others need air to properly thrive (aerobic). Bacteria need water to live producing a slime of sorts around them that binds the substrate together and preserves some moisture required for it's survival. They are extremely good at decomposing organic matter by producing enzymes that break down nutrients. The enzymatically digested nutrients are then absorbed back into the bacteria. Fungus is similar in that it also uses enzymes to decompose matter but has some unique characteristics. First, it produces Chitin. This is the same biological substance used in crab and various sea shells and the exoskeletons of many insects. Chitin gives fungus stiffer and a more resistant cellular make-up than bacteria. These fungus cells combine into chains and have passageways between them. This allows fungus to transport fluids from one end of it's chain to the other. I'm sure many of you have heard of Mycorrhizal fungi for example, which encircles and sometimes attaches to root systems searching for food and water on it's own by expanding beyond the plants regular capacity, then transports the nutrients back to the roots. Root's will exchange these nutrients for carbohydrate rich fluids called Exudate's. These exudate's are imperative to producing chitin. The important feature here is that the plant chooses when to exchange the nutrients hence giving a healthy plant more natural control over it's own growth. It also means that this fungus will become an extension of root systems leading to more efficient nutrient absorption. When fungus and bacteria absorb a nutrient, that nutrient becomes locked inside them. They don't release this nutrient until exudate exchange or death. This means nutrients have more of a lasting and natural effect creating a humus rich, nutrient available medium. There are books based on this subject so I won't get to deep into it, but I feel promoting a strong microbial life in organic applications is my primary priority. I'll frequently refer to this microbial life, explaining it further. Plants are not totally depended on these methods of nutrient absorption. They can produce they're own enzymes also, just not nearly as efficiently.

If you've read the above information than you understand the importance of a "living" substrate. A diverse and rich bacterial and fungal balanced medium contains enough beneficial organisms to out compete pathogens and disease causing bacteria and creates accessible stored nutrient content. Chemical fertilizers kill off much of the microbial life and allow for limited forms of absorption and resistance to disease. When some microbial life dies off the fragile "circle of life" follows. If for example we eliminated bacterial life, this will lead to an abundance of fungus. Enzymes produced from fungus are acidic. This drives the pH down creating nutrient lock-up and unattractive environments for life, specifically bacteria.

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50463
 

OGKushman

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Chem nutes do not kill microbes. They just do not support their growth .

I feed the Microbes when I brew the tea, the point is not to support the microbes in my hydroponics reservoirs (adding food for microbes will flare up the bad stuff in my buckets again), it is to combat other bad bacterias. New tea must be added every few days to keep the numbers high.

..and it works, it works wonders. How do I know? Well It completely solved a brown slime problem i had as well as stopped my fungus gnat issue (baccilius T)

I have tested this now and I would bet my life on the results I have found. ;)



What you guys aren not realizing is you are comparing your SOIL "organics" to a hydroponic "immune system." I am not trying to "feed the soil."


It might be a lot to absorb... but it will eventually be accepted.

Here is my work with it (as well as many years of research in other links):
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60523

It doesnt lie. :)
 

umbra

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OGKushman said:
Chem nutes do not kill microbes. They just do not support their growth .

I feed the Microbes when I brew the tea, the point is not to support the microbes in my hydroponics reservoirs (adding food for microbes will flare up the bad stuff in my buckets again), it is to combat other bad bacterias. New tea must be added every few days to keep the numbers high.

..and it works, it works wonders. How do I know? Well It completely solved a brown slime problem i had as well as stopped my fungus gnat issue (baccilius T)

I have tested this now and I would bet my life on the results I have found. ;)



What you guys aren not realizing is you are comparing your SOIL "organics" to a hydroponic "immune system." I am not trying to "feed the soil."


It might be a lot to absorb... but it will eventually be accepted.

Here is my work with it (as well as many years of research in other links):
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60523

It doesnt lie. :)
I read it. While it may not lie, it is far from a scientific study, and your conclusions are far from accurate. But the fact remains, this post was about using hydro nutes in SOIL, and not furthering your personal beliefs.
 

OGKushman

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How do you figure it is not a scientific study? There is a control bucket, a change in formula, and a continuing formula. I am simply recreating an experiment, and getting the same results.... thats how science works. The fact that I can reproduce the same results make it much more then theory.

The results were in long before i decided to post that thread, and I am just further proving the links that I provided in that thread for those that dont trust to venture to a different forum.

The reason I posted in this thread was to inform some that using chemical fertilizers in soil are not going to hurt the plant. But it might leave them open to attack from a lack of beneficial microbes. SO i would add beneficial microbes along side the chemical nutes.

Thats all I was getting at. ...that the whole chems vs hydro arguement is not really an argument at all.

Like was said above, you feed the plant; or you feed the soil.
 
T

Time4Plan-B

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My best ever result from 1 x plant was 1 x sensi star in cheap nasty soil fed cheap nasty ionic hydro nutes and under 1 x 400w no fans air exchange nuthink yet 8oz dry @ 4' high and 56 days.
T4
 
R

Roddy

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SO i would add beneficial microbes along side the chemical nutes.

Or, don't kill the microbes and no need to add them..... :) Truly, not sure adding microbes to a sterile soil is going to do much, microbes with nothing to feed on won't live long. mho...
 
T

Time4Plan-B

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Yes serious ogk when i knew nuthink and still chasing that elusive 8oz plant.
Lol
T4
 

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