just cant diagnose this one...anyone?

saycheese

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hi i have an issue id like to share with u kind folk

top growth slower fresher and less firm slightly rubberry feeling for a day or two
, also a bit of bunching and chlorosis of newer growth (from tips)
plus what looks like mag or zinc or possibly potassium deficiency i cant pin it down
main problem is the lime green inter veinal chlorosis which i dont know if it is a lockout due to overfeed or ph or a genuine deficiency
had been slowly increasing dose of vega when i got some tip burn, after this i gave straight water twice
then started the feeding regime again at a very low strength
it dosent show any worse burning than just tips
are these normal symptoms to be seeing after a bit of tip burn
looks very much like iron/mag/zinc problems but not specifically like any one of them
feeding normally now at about 10ml per gal but they still look a bit light,
still inter vein chlorosis a bit , still not vigourous like they were before burnt tips. foliar feed with v weak molasses definateley showed a slight improvement in the colour but only slight,
also not worsening after a feed of 6ml vega 4ml flores ( i thought it cant hurt to add a little this early just to see if it improves with more p and k in there)
can anyone say if this is normal after a slight overfeed??
by looking at a ph nutrient uptake chart im wildly guessing that my dirt ph could be a bit low and may be locking out things
but i cant say that all the symptoms lead me to one problem/solution, need to do runoff test but i hear the results
arnt always trustworthy if you dont do it just right

i dont trust my 4 quid soil tester it said 6 one time 7 another its clearly only a rough reading if its even accurate
i have put enzymes near enough every feed /water i dont know if using too frequently could have adverse effect

no photo til 8.30pm but i shall get one asap
i have a feeling a more experienced grower might spot an ovious issue ive overlooked, thanks for reading

question time
1. How tall are your plants now?
1 foot tall ( Lst'd , would probably be near 2 feet if standing
straight up )
2. How far from the lights are the tops of your plants? Is this a constant distance or have you changed it recently?
about 18 inches ( radiant heat from lamp causes temps above 30
degrees if closer )
3. How old are they?
7 weeks since germination, currently 7 days since switching to
12/12
4. What strain are they?
Barneys farm liberty haze
5. Did you start them from seed or clone?
seed ( feminised ) -- nice hard tiger stripe good size and shape
( one of ten looked bad and one of ten didnt
germinate so i reckon i know what to look for now in a pip )
6. What type of containers are you using and what size are they in gallons?
11 litre / 3 gal plastic square pots with 8 large holes at bottom,
lined with newspaper at bottom
8. What mixture of dirt or type of dirt did you use?
1 part pearlite : 2 parts canna terra seed mix : 3 parts canna
terra pro PLUS : teaspoon dolomite lime
( yes only a teaspoon ive yet to really use lime when mixing up so
was over cautious) .... repeat
9. Is it a type that has added nutrients like "Miracle Grow"?
i think seed mix very lightly nuted + inocculated , terra pro plus i
think not nuted ( i think ive passed the point where it would
cause an issue )
WHAT TYPE OF LIGHTS DO YOU USE?
400w HPS digital ballast (lumatek ) with 'super lumen' switch
engaged ( output = to a 500w i think ) ( dual spectrum bulb )
124w grow/blue cfl in reflector
24. What nutrients are you feeding your plants?
i have -- Biocanna line all bio - vega, flores, boost, rhizo +
biobizz topmax + hygrozyme + blackstrap molasses + bat guano
( highN and highP )
currently feeding ( per gal) about 10ml vega, 6ml Hygrozyme,
teaspoon molasses ( molasses not every time )
feed:water:feed:water regime ph'd to 6.5-6.7 with lemon juice
every feed /watering

only water or feed when pot is light and i poke the dirt and feel
the top two inches to make sure its dry

havent seen any wilting OR curling this grow so im happy with my water schedule it used to be awful
also i brew tea with fresh ewc and a tiny pinch guano and tiny bit molasses i give this every few waterings at low dosage less than cup per gal

1. How tall are your plants now?
1 foot tall ( Lst'd , would probably be near 2 feet if straight
2. How far from the lights are the tops of your plants? Is this a constant distance or have you changed it recently?
about 18 inches ( radiant heat from lamp causes temps
above 30 degrees if closer )
3. How old are they?
7 weeks since germination, currently 7 days since switching to
12/12
4. What strain are they?
Barneys farm liberty haze
5. Did you start them from seed or clone?
seed ( feminised ) -- nice hard tiger stripe good size and shape ( one of ten looked bad and one of ten didnt
germinate so i reckon i know what to look for now in a pip )
6. What type of containers are you using and what size are they in gallons?
11 litre / 3 gal plastic square pots with 8 large holes at bottom, lined with newspaper at bottom

8. What mixture of dirt or type of dirt did you use?
1 part pearlite : 2 parts canna terra seed mix : 3 parts
canna terra pro PLUS : teaspoon dolomite lime
( yes only a teaspoon ive yet to really use lime when
mixing up so was over cautious) .... repeat
9. Is it a type that has added nutrients like "Miracle Grow"?
i think seed mix very lightly nuted + inocculated , terra pro
plus i think not nuted ( i think ive passed the point where it
would cause an issue )
WHAT TYPE OF LIGHTS DO YOU USE?
400w HPS digital ballast (lumatek ) with 'super lumen'
switch engaged ( output = to a 500w i think ) ( dual
spectrum bulb )
124w grow/blue cfl in reflector
24. What nutrients are you feeding your plants?
i have -- Biocanna line all bio - vega, flores, boost, rhizo
+ biobizz topmax + hygrozyme + blackstrap molasses + bat
guano ( highN and highP )
currently feeding ( per gal) about 10ml vega, 6ml
Hygrozyme, teaspoon molasses ( molasses not every time )
feed:water:feed:water regime ph'd to 6.5-6.7 with
lemon juice every feed /watering

only water or feed when pot is light and i poke the dirt and
feel the top two inches to make sure its dry

havent seen any wilting OR curling this grow so im happy with my water schedule it used to be awful
also i brew tea with fresh ewc and a tiny pinch guano and tiny bit molasses i give this every few waterings at low dosage less than cup per gal
ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS OF THE GROW AREA

29. Do you use ventilation for your indoor grow?
6" centrifugal extractor ( cannot remember brand, box is gone
and is encased in crack foam now )
31. Do you use a fan?
Yes
32. What type of fan and where is it pointed? What speed?
12" oscillating ( but not oscillating at present ) on low speed
sometimes medium ( speeds 1-3) pointed between lamp and
canopy
33. Temperature of the grow area?
28-31 degrees
34. Humidity of the grow area?
20 % when pots are dry rising to 35% when just watered -
havent checked peak lights off humidity yet
35. Is CO2 being introduced? What method?
no ( well yes but only 1:4:10 sugar:water:yeast in a plastic
bottle every few weeks and regular shake
- effect is probably more psychological than anything i know it
only marginally raises ppm's and i dont turn the extraction off
so almost a no )
36. Do you use Odor Control, (carbon, ionizer, ozone gen)?
2 x 4" carbon filter on a tee piece and reducer onto the 6" duct
and extractor
( my maths says this is surface area of an 8" filter but not
sure, i know its not too little filtration )
37. Do you use LST? HST?
Lst nearly every branch over time, tie down main stem
around rim if possible sometimes just lean over,
then FIM tops, supercrop any branch that overtakes others in
hieght too much ( never too much training of any kind in one
sesh )
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?)
seed
How long have they been in the soil mixture they are in now?
3 weeks
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
veg but 7 days into 12/12 so beginning the stretch
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc)
tied down lots but not quite scrog. squat dense bushes
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
vega/flores then molass then hygrozyme
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used?
highest measured at 800ppm but usually 700ppm not sure if it
really matters in organics but i do it anyway makes me feel
important
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"?
i need to do a runoff test ive never done one
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH
i use cheap digi pen
How often are you watering?
24/0 every other day now every 3 days
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range)
18-32 diff 14
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
dont know exactly but its adequate i had a lot of
problems running a smaller extraction so now its a 4" in and a
6" out for a 1x1x2 tent (metres)
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
always running
Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
slightly above but plants all wiggling just enough
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist?
nope i gotta good wet/dry goin on i had that issue a while ago
Is your water HARD or SOFT?
hard tap water. limescale in the sink etc. ph 8.2 left to evap chlorine
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched?
stopped all training when switcxhed to 12/12
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when?
nooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Are plant's infected with pest's?
no no biocanna soil anymore lol
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)
yes tent 1x1x2 i think its called a 'budbox' its white inside
 

mikeydean

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after all that here :48:

I'm not much help but....:peace:
 

trillions of atoms

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lol @ pcduck


please...take the time to take some pics and make a short thread of questions or concerns. Older growers like me arnt going to read through a book to figure out what your really asking. not trying to be a jerk....just really trying to help.
 

saycheese

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Of course I understand I thought it was a book worth
Of questions but I thought it may help.
Will defo add a picture ASAP
I think when I've added a pic the info I've given may or may not
be useful
I don't think anyone's being a jerk at all I lve read a million threads
Full of crap I did think it might be hard going
It is a biiiiiig long post I just thought if I provided all the answers
It might help

Thanks for even reading I'll add photos ASAP
And highlight the specific symptoms showing. I was lights
Out when I posted so couldn't do snaPs an it's valentines
( I'm out with wife as I type drinking a cocktail )

I'm certain somebody here can help if I provide
Focused info on the problem I know the community
Here is a wealth of knowledge I'm sorry I gave an essay
 
T

The Hemp Goddess

Guest
We just don't want to guess Doing the wrong thing is almost always worse than doing nothing. I am sure you will get some help as soon as we can see your sick baby.
 

saycheese

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have attached pics

taken under hps - i can try get better shots but its late

in the black rings are 3 yellowed / necrotic leaves and 2 others displaying a bit of interveinal chlorosis (i only looped the two clearest but the plants/s they are on are the worst affected ) the chlorosis is all over but pretty mild just a lighter shade between veins pattern like a mag/zinc issue?

i can also see some small brown necrotic spots on other leaves that have also yellowed in parts randomly not like N def

they dont look too bad to be fair ive seen worse its just this has crept up really slow and i dont like the very slight bunching/twisting of tops either -- last ones i grew that did that (GH WR ) were awful

it seems like a mild issue but one that could continue especially if its soil ph going up or down

thanks all

DSCF1076edit.jpg


DSCF1078.jpg


DSCF1079.jpg
 

Hushpuppy

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A couple things here. It has been my experience that when you seem to have several problems at one time, that means you have a bad PH level. The reason is that if the PH is off, it can lock out several different nutrients and that will cause deficiency symptoms. Also if the PH is off in the soil and you keep adding nutrients, the problem switches to soil toxicity, which in my experience causes lots of small, random, necrotic spots to form on the leaves. Calcium deficiency looks very similar but has a telltale symptom of proportional distribution of necrotic spots on the serrated points of the leaves.

Its hard to tell very well but it does appear that they are showing a magnesium deficiency as well.

The couple of very necrotic leaves may actually be false symptoms. Often as the plants grow, the oldest and lowest leaves get used up and recycled, which makes them look very symptomatic before they die off. I would ignore those leaves and look to the broader symptoms. Which brings us back to PH.

I see you have hard water and a PH of 8.2. That is very high PH for tap water. Do you use anything to adjust the PH into the proper zone after adding nutrients? Have you had your water tested to see what's in it? That is my first suspect in this problem. If the water has too high of some chemical in it, it could be locking up other chemicals and causing the PH to remain way off. But if you aren't adjusting the PH down to around 6.4-6.8 than that is your problem. However, I think if your PH has been off then you should have started having symptoms sooner.

It seems most likely to me that the water is causing a buildup of some element that is toxifying your soil over time. That may be the actual source of the earlier nute burn symptom(leaf tip burn is a typical symptom of overnute). Then flushing it would only add to the problem by adding more of whats in the water.

You can check the soil PH by checking the run off with a digital pen. This isn't the most reliable way to determine the soil PH. What I do is take clean water and check the PH and if it isn't at 7, I adjust it to 7 and allow to sit and stabilize for several hours to be sure it stays at 7. Then water plant until I get enough runoff to fill a cup with about 50ml. Then I check PH and compare it to the PH going in(which is 7).

If the runoff comes out at 6.5 then I know the soil is actually lower than 6.5 because it had to bring the adjusted water down to 6.5. If the runoff is at 7.5 then I know the soil is higher than 7.5 for the same reason. Unfortunately I can tell how much higher or lower it is because there are too many variables that affect the way the PH would change. A chemist could probably give a good idea. :)

See if you can get your water tested for all of the possible mineral content. If you can't then get the TDS of the tap water. I can't remember but I think if your water is over 300ppm on a TDS meter then you have problem amounts of mineral or heavy metals present and will need to find a new water source or get an RO type of filter to remove the heavies. :)
 

saycheese

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Thanks hush puppy much appreciated

I'll dig some reports on the local water I've read some before but
Didn't look at the calcium levels etc or what the acceptable levels
Are for growing just looked for chloramines on the list

If I use lemon juice with potassium metabisulphite in it as ph down could this be a problem

The lower ones may just be badly lit and so dropping

I am suspicious of a low soil ph
I would like to top dress with guanokalong powder soon ( has calcium)
And dolomite lime but worry that the hardness in the water might affect levels of calcium badly

Should I top dress with lime? Afaik it shouldn't hurt to add tablespoon per gal and scratch into top of soil. I was thinking this could be the fix,and was gona try it simply cos I don't think it will hurt even of it isn't the solution,
I don't think it's high soil ph, anyone else think its worth a shot

I know if it's a calcium overdose that my guano with cal won't be well received

Tap is 300 ppm (or 420 ppm on a blue lab truncheon it says the lower ppm is x500 the higher x700) i just checked it and it's been standing for 48hrs, I don't know if the chlorine is measured in the ppm reading but I know it gets even higher tds higher if the water evaps

Is 300ppm very bad?
 

saycheese

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Will my plants needs for calcium ( which I suspect could be the issue in the water) as they begin flowering rise, enough to help 'eat' more cal from the water?
 

Hushpuppy

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Above 300ppm is definitely concerning. Since you get lime buildup on plumbing surfaces I am willing to assume that the high ppm is from calcium in the water. I would be afraid to do anything until determining what and how much is in your water.

I don't know about the lemon juice for lowering PH. I have heard others say that food stuffs for adjusting PH doesn't work very well and isn't very reliable for maintaining PH levels. I would look into buying some organic friendly PH adjuster. The bad thing about using different chemicals for PH adjustment is that unless you know chemistry very well (I don't), you can't be sure that the chemicals you are using aren't conflicting with other important chemicals in the soil.That is why I prefer to buy my PH adjusters premade.

Why would you be thinking that you have low PH? You said your water has very high PH (lime and calcium raise PH). What is the PH of your water after you mix in everything, before pouring onto plants. If the PH is very high originally and you are having to lower it manually, then the only reason it would be too low would be if you are making it too low. I suspect that if others are right about food stuff adjusters not being reliable, then when you adjust the PH down, it fails to stay down and slowly rises back up to lock out the needed elements.

I wouldn't add anything until finding out about the soil PH and water impurities. :)
 

saycheese

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Great thanks HP I'm looking at water report. I'm gona post it it's got caco3 on it.
I'm not sure how to use the info it's very detailed and doesn't say for example 'chloramine' I think u are right about the unstable ph down I have noticed it to rise from 6.5 up to 6.7 in about 2 hours whilst standing after ph'ing down with lemon juice

Can you recommend any particular brand of organic ph down?

I don't think I've been going too low, lowest I've adjusted to is 6.4 usually 6.6 ( no real reason for this tbh)

I think there's peat in the terra pro plus I hear it's very acidic I had been wondering if this isn't maybe saving the grow from the high ph water
(your angle makes the most perfect sense as a theory, I thought maybe low ph but the facts as presented are much more likely to signal high ph as you have highlighted )

If its excess cal is there a scientific way, any safe way to lock the cal away from the plant? ( I'm guessing no just reverse osmosis )
Can I mix say half tap and half Brita filtered water to lower ppms calcium?

Water report to follow
 

7greeneyes

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I buy ph up and ph down at the local hydro shop. It's pretty cheap and more stable then lemon juice or vinegar or what have you....
 

Hushpuppy

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I haven't been able to find any organic PH adjusters but I would think they are out there. I actually use Technaflora's PH adjusters in my organic setup to make sure my stuff stayed below 7.0 and I had no problems using it.

I don't think the standard filters will remove much of the disolved minerals or heavy metals from the water. You may have to look into a combination of RO filtering, bottled water, and captured rain water. However, even rainwater needs to be tested before using as it can have some pretty nasty stuff in it if you are in an area of stronger air polution. Coal fired electricity plants are notorious for causing "acid rain" which can be deadly to plants.
 

saycheese

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cant seem to print screen or find a pic of the water report to attach but i think this is the relevant info

mgl CaCO3 (ppm)___Degrees-Clarke___German(DH)______ Detergentrating
288.0 __________20.16 ____________ 16.128 ___________ HARD

Fluoride(ppm)
0.131875

CaCo3 ranges from 285-291 across the area 288 is the mean

i had a friend grow without ph adjusting in my street and his plants didnt look bad at all nice n green hes very close to me so same water
he didnt ever stand the water ( he used biobizz grow/bloom/topmax though and i use biocanna ) he was growing buddha cheese and buddha haze
based on this id say the chlorine/other nasties levels will be ok, i stand mine

maybe my liberty haze is a tricky babe i did read that chemdawg91 and g13 are both not for novice growers and this barneys lib is a cross of the two, i feel lucky to only have 3 distinct phenos in batch of 10 i shall dance the dance if its anythimg like the bit from amnesia coffeshop

( have learned so much about biology and chemistry this grow - i love to learn )

im going to check what a brita filter actually removes and in what amounts,
well actually its an 'aqua optima' we budgeting lol

is food grade citric acid powder no good? i read that its what a lot of organic ph downs are made of so i assume more stable than concentrate lemon juice but at this point i think im just guna ebay some branded organic phdown it cant be more than 15quid and i didnt get them a valentines gift yet

thanks
 

Hushpuppy

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I believe that the CaCO3 is Calcium carbonate. That will give you some problem but being in organic(if your microbe herd is good) should help to break that down. I would be willing to bet that the CaCO3 is causing the PH to drive up as it breaks down in the soil, and the lemon juice isn't strong enough to keep from being broken down itself.

I would say that Nitric acid or Phospheric acid is what you need and should work ok within the organic setup. The problem with food grade acids is that they are compounds that can break down more easily and become neutralized. I think you can overcome the calcium in the water and even use it to your advantage by adding (no lime) but either greensand or epsome salt to the soil mix. I believe this will ballance out the magnesium/calcium content in the soil. And by keeping the PH in check (6.5-6.9) :)
 

ShOrTbUs

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using water with ppms that high is bad for organic soil. i strongly suggest making an investment in a RO system.

this one is completely worth the investment >>> hxxp://www.ehydroponics.com/hydrologic-stealth-ro-100-100-gpd-system.html

what kind of soil are you using? did you build it yourself or is it potting mix with amendments?
 

trillions of atoms

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woah woah woah,,,


i see the light bleaching out the plants in most of the outlines....


the one outline you can not tell whats going on....but by telling us that you use lemon juice for PH......tells me its a PH problem anyway.


PLEASE Ph your water before you feed.....no ** test strips...get a PH meter from ebay, they are under 20 bux. and a PH kit is another 20......


dont use lemon juice, or any other household ingredient to PH you nutes/water or soil.....


keep it around 6.3-6.8 you want it to flutter between the low and high number...a little out of that range is fine , as long as you keep it around in the range.

your plants need to feed at dif PH levels, so it going up and down is normal....
 

ShOrTbUs

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im personally against using ph up and down in an organic grow. a properly balanced soil with a strong herd will always ph itself properly(using a pure water source). i've yet to find a definitive answer as to whether or not ph up/down kills your microbes. until i find one, ph up/down stays out of my organic garden.
 
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