just cant diagnose this one...anyone?

[saycheese]

I didn't think my light could even cause any bleaching it's a 400w at 18 inches away and hasn't been closer than a foot, I've never had any bleaching before, i thougt they would burn from the radiant heat before light bleaching ?? Of course I'm not certain that it can't happen.

I'm goin to look up greensand/ Epsom salts and see
Can anyone explain how adding the Epsom salts ( more cal yes? ) can help
Is it a different form of cal? Is the cal mag ratio more important than the actual amounts?

I'm aware of the ph fluctuation and how it can be beneficial , so untill I get some real organic ph down, could I ph down with the unstable lemon juice to a much lower value ? To ensure the ph swings through the range for enough time to allow healthy uptake?

Thanks all

 

[ShOrTbUs]

I didn't think my light could even cause any bleaching it's a 400w at 18 inches away and hasn't been closer than a foot, I've never had any bleaching before, i thougt they would burn from the radiant heat before light bleaching ?? Of course I'm not certain that it can't happen.

I'm goin to look up greensand/ Epsom salts and see
Can anyone explain how adding the Epsom salts ( more cal yes? ) can help
Is it a different form of cal? Is the cal mag ratio more important than the actual amounts?

I'm aware of the ph fluctuation and how it can be beneficial , so untill I get some real organic ph down, could I ph down with the unstable lemon juice to a much lower value ? To ensure the ph swings through the range for enough time to allow healthy uptake?

Thanks all

this grow is 100% organic right? organic ph up/down will not fix your problem b/c it breaks down too fast. you need to identify the reason why your soil's ph is off and fix it.

imo you have 2 real choices here. the high amount of dissolved solids in your water is causing your soil ph to become far to alkaline. the high amount of calcium is is creating a salt build up around the root zone, increasing the ph and locking out multiple nutrients at once. salt build up will also choke the roots of its much needed oxygen.

option 1 - adjust your soil to accommodate the unusually high amount of calcium in the water. the dowunside being, you will constantly have to re-adjust in the future due to the fact that the city's water ppms will fluctuate with the seasons.

option 2 - buy a RO filter system

either way you need to flush your soil of all the excess salts, otherwise the problem will continually get worse.

 

[TwoHighCrimes]

Saycheese hello i love your name
I say cheese every morning to my ladies in the greenhouse.

For me i bubble my tap water which is also Ph8.3 for 18-24hrs !
This aids any impurities to dissolve faster.. and assists in quicker breeding for my microbe herd when the mollasses and microbes are added !

Personally i do use lemon juice concentrate as ph down and it has never been an issue with feeding or using alone in tap water !
You will find that 7mls per liter of water will put you at Ph6.5

Its a food product and blahblahblah but it works for me and its the only thing i have used for a few grows !
You also mention that you have just flipped about 2 weeks ago and the stretch has begun so your plant will require good amounts of Phospherous and nitrogen along with all the macro nutes as well .
The flip is a stressful time your plant has become a woman overnight kinda thing !
I'm kinda thinking that your leaves look very similiar to mine a few weeks ago and your problem may well be a phospherous deficiency !
You also have mentioned cheap ph tester i would test your Ph meter against a local garden centre meter to ensure that your meter is up to standard as well .
I say this because my $35 millwaukee dropped the ball and certainly did'nt help when my problems started !

Anyway i can also say that you are in extremely good hands here at MP
Don't make any drastic decisions without getting some help here .
Some people can do crazy things like LOVE EM TO DEATH !
Don't do that

Peace and Gods Speed !:bolt:

 

[saycheese]

Two high crimes thanks, I've found aerating the water raises the ph but I admit I haven't aerated then sat it for 24hrs afterward to see if the ph returns to what it was

I'm seriously considering a DIY Ro machine or perhaps second hand and buy new filters I saw people getting em quite cheap

Lol the name came from my love of said strain but I hate it now cos nobody seems to grow it without tiny early seeds and never get any organic bits. I can honestly say my first cheese grow was better cheese than any I ever had and I mean even in holland so bat pooey so pickled and tangy smelling and clean .
(thanks to advice from MP) Now Im I'm love with the liberty haze but I've learnt all the relevant stuff about phenotypes quite recently after buying so I hope I got a pheno that's close to the dam cut that won some award or other but I actually doubt it. It'll be nice im sure -but it might not be what I was expecting wen I purchased the pips

I'm going to water my plants at lights on today ( hour after to be precise )
If the lemon is less stable as a ph adjuster

Should I ph my water low, say ph 6.2 ?

Theory being that the root environment will be within target ph range for a longer period of time if the starting ph is lower

 

[trillions of atoms]

yeah if its organic, use dolomite lime....it will buffer the PH naturally.

 

[saycheese]

Would 200ppm calcium be acceptable ( if I use a 50/50 mix of tap/filtered)

My domestic water filter jug leaves mag and potassium alone but takes 80% chlorine and 80% calcium carbonate away

water is 150ppm after filtering haven't ph'd it yet but educate guess says it could be a little bit bit lower than the original 8.2

 

[saycheese]

Would 200ppm calcium be acceptable ( if I use a 50/50 mix of tap/filtered)

My domestic water filter jug leaves mag and potassium alone but takes 80% chlorine and 80% calcium carbonate away

water is 150ppm after filtering haven't ph'd it yet but educate guess says it could be a little bit bit lower than the original 8.2

 

[Hushpuppy]

I don't know this for fact but I believe that small doses of PH adjuster should be fine. I would bet that high amounts of Nitric acid (which is for PH dn)would wipe out the fungal microbes but the bacteria would probably be fine as they perfer the lower PH. And then the PH up(potassium Hydroxide) would probably wipe out the bacteria and not hurt the fungals. I may have that backwards, I can't remember off the top of my head :stoned: But using it in small amounts, mixed into water first should not cause any problems as it is diluted.

I would agree that for organic setups in which the microbe herd is well established, you shouldn't need to ever adjust PH. However, if your source water is waay off for whatever reason then to eliminate any problems occuring, adjusting the source water to get it in range would be a must, and shouldn't be an issue. The reason I say this is that in my limited organic growing experience, I had to adjust my source water even after adding nutes. But I never had any problems with my organics, and my soil PH stayed at 6.8 constantly (when measured, it probably had plenty of micro fluxuations)

 

[saycheese]

Thanks all I've filtered my water tonight and it's 200ppm maybe just under and the ph is 6.6

Now I'm only wondering- is just the lack of the calcium carbonate that makes the ph lower ?

Its just water this time but if I'm filtering using this method I will have issue when mixing the same 10ml of nutes per gal ive worked up to, as the ph would surely go too low (10ml vega in gal takes 8.2 down to 7.0 I think logarithmic means it would take far less nutes to take the ph down from 6.6 out of acceptable range)

The same way lemon juice is unstable , is aerating to get the ph to go up a stable process, will the dissolved oxygen be gone really quick leaving the ph lower? Is aerating the answer to raising nutrient ph at all?

 

[Hushpuppy]

If you have high calcium in the water and the PH is high, you don't want to add any lime at this point. You need to get the PH and calcium down some. If your filter cets out that much calcium then it might be good enough. Dropping it to 150ppm may do what you need. Check the PH on it after mixing/aerating and see where its at. If it is still above 7.0 then use the lemon juice and drop it lower like you said, about 6.3 and see how they do with it.

 

[Hushpuppy]

Just saw your response. I say filter the water and then mix in your nutes and aerate it for 24hrs and then see where the PH is and do any adjusting from there. Don't adjust the PH until after the nute solution has aerated. I think the PH stays stable after aerating because of the hydrogen, nitrogen, and other elements in the air form chemical bonds that only break down under the chelating process. If the areating brings your PH into the range you need after all the nutes have been added then go with that

 

[saycheese]

Thanks that's great info --

I did a runoff testof sorts, I collected some runoff from all plants (watered all over same tray), I watered it in at ph6.6 which was the filtered water with dash of hygrozyme no ph adjustment, it came out at ph 7.1 so could I hazard a guess that the soil is between 7 and 8 likely closer to 8.0?

Also lots of sodium in water ( highest 159ppm mean level is 50ppm hope I'm on the lower end) and no mention of mg at all on the water

Am I likely to need Epsom salts or should the biocanna nutes provide enough mag once the ph of the soul is correct? Should be good to have as a foliar for emergency ( I foliared some molasses and certainly saw a difference so if mag is locked out of the roots I can spray it for a quick fix )

I think with everyones help ive pinned the issue down to excess cal carbonate building up causing high ph lockout of mag (and others) plus locked out nutes building up to cause secondary problems (purple stem, micronutrient defs )

I've always grown in roughly the same area geographically but in 4 different houses and this water must be just that bit harder cos my other grows didn't show any necrosis just an early yellowing and a bit of the claw


Does anyone know if more frequent applications of bacterial tea would be beneficial in balancing out the cal etc in the soil will the bacteria break it down?

 

[Hushpuppy]

OK that sounds good. We are getting to the root of the problem now. I would give an educated guess that your actual soil PH is about 7.6, given the 6.6 water and 7.1 runoff.

The excess sodium is probably a buildup of idle mineral salt from the nutrients like Shortbus said earlier. I think you will need either epsom salt or greensand for the magnesium(I doubt the Biocanna will have enough magnesium as most nute brands don't include much magnesium). You will not need anything with calcium as the water has it(even though you will filter it, not all of the calcium will be removed).

Having a good microbe herd is very important and I don't know if you can over-do the addition of microbes. When I had my organic auto-watering system going, I kept brewing nute tea with microbes and mollasses to feed them and steadily fed it to my plant. It did very good and produced about 150-170g off one plant.

I would say that what you need to do at this point is get some bottled water from somewhere so that it has very low TDS and use about 3x as much water as the volume of the planters to flush the soil. This will remove the buildup of toxic nutrients that have got out of ballance. After that, you can make up some nute/microbe tea with the filtered water, and let that aerate for about 48hrs before adding some to the plants. Don't worry about over watering them because by aerating your water, you are adding plenty of oxygen for the roots.

Just don't give them a lot of nuted water straight away as they probably will still be a bit wet. You can even wait for them to dry out a bit before adding back the nute tea.

I just looked up Epsom salt and I think that would be your best option at the moment as it is Magnesium Sulfate, which is PH neutral and absorbs easily. After you flush and get them stabilized, then top dress the soil with a couple tablespoons(about 30grams) of epsom salt before you water them with the nute tea so that it gets disolved into the soil. I'm not sure how much it will take of the epsom salt so you will have to watch them and possibly add more as you go.

 

[ShOrTbUs]

cheese, would you mind giving me a run down of the soil you're using + all the amendment/additives your using?

hush - fungi like low ph bacteria like high ph

 

[saycheese]

thanks hp i wrote epsom on my shopping list this morn already so ill grab that asap my mate told me its cheap n easy to find his mum has it for whatever its used for i didnt ask

i picked up some fresh ewc ( im next to a wooded area, ewc collected from patch of grass next to wooded area ) but didnt start to brew it yet ill get that bubbling today should be 48-72 hrs before the plants need water/feed, i was researching fungal ingredients for tea and plan to grab some oat flour to culture some fungus

shall i go ahead with this mix? -large teaspoon fresh ewc/small pinch high N bat guano powder/small bit molasses ive been using this im sure its bacterial especially with molass and after 48hrs

shortbus -
i put the seeds into root riot cubes, germed and planted into 85:15 ratio canna terra seed mix: pearlite nothing else,

repotted into final containers mix was 2:3:1:teaspoon
seedmix:canna terra pro plus: pearlite:dolo lime

the terra pro plus was old, sat in a bag for 3 years (indoors, no pests etc, low humidity area) dont know if that affects it

short do you think then that ill have trouble trying to establish a fungal colony in time to assist the p uptake ? i read that inocculation with funghi is best done early in the game, im hoping to give lots fungal tea in flower and one of the biocanna bottles promotes fungal colony i think the boost, i have only brewed bacterial thus far. i mixed oats and ewc but the resulting muck 3 days later smelled of feet and had no beard

new growth (10 hours since watering ) looking darker like its getting more N and more lush but still tips a little light yellow/white so must be loads of accumulated fert im guessing the 6.6 ph hasnt swung so fast and is allowing better uptake, not much change on the old growth still light green chlorosis and yellowing bottom third of plant ( i plan to put a second 400w when flowering has started in full so should be less natural lower yellowing due to better light penetration )

i am a little concerned that apart from an extra inch in hieght im not seeing any real budsites beginning to form yet, this also makes me think high accumulated N, i went from 24/0 to 12/12 which i thought would really jumpstart flowering as they had never experienced dark, i have always waited for preflowers and then seen the switch happen over course of a week or so,
its a longer strain im expecting 12 weeks + even tho barneys reckon 9weeks
ill be more worried if they dont start flower in a week or two from now

my plan is to brew a good tea ready for when the pots are near dry, use about 15 litres of distilled water ph'd to 6.4, first water 10 litres plain to runoff, then half hour later top dress 20-30g epsom salt then water the usual 5 litres with nice amount of bacterial tea and some hygrozyme

sound a good plan?

 

[TwoHighCrimes]

Shortbus i found this info
8. What mixture of dirt or type of dirt did you use?
1 part pearlite : 2 parts canna terra seed mix : 3 parts
canna terra pro PLUS : teaspoon dolomite lime
( yes only a teaspoon ive yet to really use lime when
mixing up so was over cautious)
The Details regarding Canna terra pro plus are as follows ..
CANNA Terra Professional Plus is designed to work and interact with CANNA TERRA nutrients. It is a peat-based potting soil made from high quality ingredients. It is composed of several fractions, from coarse to fine, which provide nutrient storage and allow for proper porosity. The added (partially decomposed) bark has antiseptic and aeration qualities. These combined ingredients avoid the use of perlite and provide for good fertility and excellent drainage. They also promote exceptional root development and the formation of thicker stems, while a faster metabolism combined with low sickness rates ensures an increased production.
The medium is pH-adjusted for long-term control with a lime charge large enough to last an entire cycle.
The availability of Terra Professional Plus completes the CANNA TERRA range, as:
It has a mineral-nutrient starter charge that adjusts the initial level of nutrients up to a good beginning charge, correcting the ratios to work perfectly with CANNA TERRA nutrients.
It has a larger pH charge than common North-American bulk-grade soilless mixes to get the best result when combined with CANNA TERRA nutrients.
24. What nutrients are you feeding your plants?
i have -- Biocanna line all bio - vega, flores, boost, rhizo
+ biobizz topmax + hygrozyme + blackstrap molasses + bat
guano ( highN and highP )
currently feeding ( per gal) about 10ml vega, 6ml
Hygrozyme, teaspoon molasses ( molasses not every time )
feed:water:feed:water regime ph'd to 6.5-6.7 with
lemon juice every feed /watering
Hygrozyme is an organic enzyme solution designed to maximize the health of the roots. The enzymes are formulated to decompose dead organic matter. This helps the plant by cleaning away any dead or rotting root matter, which stimulates clean, healthy, vigorous new root growth. It also helps the roots to break down the nutrients in the solution to better absorb them. Not necessary for growing, but I consider it a secret weapon. It's like a natural, organic plant steroid (Organic Materials Research Institute -OMRI- approved!)

BioVega has been developed especially for the plants' growth phase. BioVega is rich in highly absorbable betaine nitrogen that is released according to the plant's needs. The bioactive substances in BioVega stimulate the root development and the formation of strong growth shoots. This allows even the fastest growing plants to optimally start their blooming period.
BioFlores was developed for the blooming phase of fast growing plants. BioFlores contains a hops extract. Due to the fact that BioFlores contains a hops extract it provides many of the necessary minerals and in the correct proportions. In addition to these minerals, hops extract also contains cannabinoid-like substances such as lupuline , luparol, lupulon and humulon , which provide the plant with extra blooming power
After years of field studies, in the primary rainforests of South Asia, Africa and Middle America, among other places, and research in CannaResearch's laboratories, CANNA is very proud to introduce BioBOOST!
BioBOOST is a yield increasing agent for all cultivation systems and can be applied in combination with all CANNA's nutritional lines and additives. BioBOOST is not a nutrient but a natural fermented plant extract with bloom stimulating characteristics that are also responsible for a fuller flavour
BioBOOST was developed by CannaResearch from plant extracts from tropical rainforests and is a true boost for plants. The bioactive substances result in an extra metabolism that is exactly what the plant needs during the blooming period. The plants produce more fructose, become healthier and stronger and are less vulnerable to diseases and plagues. The result is a higher yield with a strong, exuberant and vital fructification.
The number of bio-active substances in BioBOOST is enormous
And here's the link to the site hxxp://www.biocanna.com.au/site/products.php?showpage=products_overview

currently feeding ( per gal) about 10ml vega, 6ml
Hygrozyme, teaspoon molasses ( molasses not every time )
feed:water:feed:water regime ph'd to 6.5-6.7 with
lemon juice every feed /watering
Imma still go with phos deficiency keep the bat guano handy !
I would also recommend adding epsom salts at 1 TBLSP per gallon dissolved with warm water as most nutes are short on mag .
All the best and good luck ! You are at the right place should be fixed up soon !

 

[ShOrTbUs]

thanks hp i wrote epsom on my shopping list this morn already so ill grab that asap my mate told me its cheap n easy to find his mum has it for whatever its used for i didnt ask

i picked up some fresh ewc ( im next to a wooded area, ewc collected from patch of grass next to wooded area ) but didnt start to brew it yet ill get that bubbling today should be 48-72 hrs before the plants need water/feed, i was researching fungal ingredients for tea and plan to grab some oat flour to culture some fungus

shall i go ahead with this mix? -large teaspoon fresh ewc/small pinch high N bat guano powder/small bit molasses ive been using this im sure its bacterial especially with molass and after 48hrs

shortbus -
i put the seeds into root riot cubes, germed and planted into 85:15 ratio canna terra seed mix: pearlite nothing else,

repotted into final containers mix was 2:3:1:teaspoon
seedmix:canna terra pro plus: pearlite:dolo lime

the terra pro plus was old, sat in a bag for 3 years (indoors, no pests etc, low humidity area) dont know if that affects it

short do you think then that ill have trouble trying to establish a fungal colony in time to assist the p uptake ? i read that inocculation with funghi is best done early in the game, im hoping to give lots fungal tea in flower and one of the biocanna bottles promotes fungal colony i think the boost, i have only brewed bacterial thus far. i mixed oats and ewc but the resulting muck 3 days later smelled of feet and had no beard

new growth (10 hours since watering ) looking darker like its getting more N and more lush but still tips a little light yellow/white so must be loads of accumulated fert im guessing the 6.6 ph hasnt swung so fast and is allowing better uptake, not much change on the old growth still light green chlorosis and yellowing bottom third of plant ( i plan to put a second 400w when flowering has started in full so should be less natural lower yellowing due to better light penetration )

i am a little concerned that apart from an extra inch in hieght im not seeing any real budsites beginning to form yet, this also makes me think high accumulated N, i went from 24/0 to 12/12 which i thought would really jumpstart flowering as they had never experienced dark, i have always waited for preflowers and then seen the switch happen over course of a week or so,
its a longer strain im expecting 12 weeks + even tho barneys reckon 9weeks
ill be more worried if they dont start flower in a week or two from now

my plan is to brew a good tea ready for when the pots are near dry, use about 15 litres of distilled water ph'd to 6.4, first water 10 litres plain to runoff, then half hour later top dress 20-30g epsom salt then water the usual 5 litres with nice amount of bacterial tea and some hygrozyme

sound a good plan?

i think you should have no problem building a new herd before flowering sets in. i would flush your soil thoroughly to remove the excess salt build up. brew a tea. the tea recipe you mentioned above will do just fine. i would suggest adding more earthworm castings though. ewc is full of micro life that your soil will need. i would also suggest removing the top few inches of the soil in your pots, and fill it back in with a 75/25 mix of castings & perlite, with 1/2-1 teaspoon of high N guano(guano is strong stuff, you dont need much). the castings will explode with microbes from all the available N. so when you water/feed your plants the microbes will hitch a ride down to the rest of the soil.


if your going to ph your tea. add the lemon juice and airate for 24 hrs before adding any microlife. not saying the lemon juice WILL kill the micro life, but it definitely CAN.

:48:

 

[saycheese]

whoops i have to admit something- my cfl was still on 24/0 and only my hps was on 12/12

no wonder they havent started to flower - the stretching was just due to lack of light for 12 hours a day ( only an old 125w grow/blue cfl on a metre square)
luckily they only climbed inch or two theres me thinkin that they started to flower, fingers crossed they dont stretch too much now

its only been 10 days so ive sorted that now and they should flower now its proper 12/12
( i only had my cfl pugged into my fan speed controller, what a blunder, i had noticed some of the U tubes in the cfl going dim i thought it was on its way out lol )

i think the lower leaves yelowing could just be to do with that, i doubt that cfl alone could sustain green growth all over, my plants are quite dense more so than previous efforts

i dont ph the tea itself, i brew a small amount maybe 750ml in a litre bottle with an airstone and add 1cup to a gal, then ph whole nute mix
i have put tea in the water or feedings once a week or so
with the filtered water it will be a much smaller amount of lemon juice, drips not squirts so im not worried about killing anything now

is there a certain ph range in the tea that means a tea is good/brewed correctly?

ill proceed with my above plan but dissolve the epsom salts in the mix and instead top dress with the suggested ewc/pearlite/guano mix, i got tiny bag high n guano powder left and i have litre or two of terra plus left to mix with it as well, the roots are going to show soon so a new top layer will be good, the soil is getting compacted

i only collected a small lump of ewc i probably need 100 times more than this, i have a worm farm but still looks a bit like compost heap and newspaper its less than two months old and a pretty shotgun affair just aa bucket, shredded newspaper small amount of woodland soil and some food waste now and then but i can see it slowly becoming what i need, just taking their sweet time with it

im itching to proceed with a good flush,top dress, tea and epsom but after the 7 litre drench yesterday ill probably have to wait about 4-5 days

thanks again

 

[Hushpuppy]

Thanks Shortbus, I thought I had that backwards but couldn't remember.

Wow, that is a lot of information to digest. From the description of the Canna stuff, you shouldn't need much else when starting off with their soil and product line. I suspect(and I am speculating a bit) the root problem is with the extra calcium in the water which kept the PH thrown off in the soil, and that prevented the microbes from correcting the PH.

Now that you have the water issue corrected, it'll just be a matter of flushing the salts out and getting it back to level. I wouldn't flush real heavy though as there probably isn't a terrible amount of buildup, and it should only take a mild rinsing to clear it out.

I'm not suprised that they haven't started flowering yet, with the chemistry being whacked out, the plants have probably gone into a bit of stasis. Once the chemistry is corrected they will come out of stasis and take off with their normal cycle again. If you are seeing changes already then they are already bouncing back. MJ is a very resilient and tenacious plant and given any chance to survive, it will.

 

[Hushpuppy]

If your tea is brewing well, you will see the PH jump one direction or the other as the microbes begin to flourish. The direction it jumps will depend on which microbes take off first. Yeah, I wouldn't PH the microbe tea either, I think you are doing that correctly.

About the lighting and flowering, it's a lucky mistake for you, I think, as having them not being encouraged to change to flowering while having this problem is one less stress on the plants. Having all of the health stress combined with the stress of trying to begin flowering could have (possibly)caused herming to occur before the end of flowering. By having the light on kept them in veg (even though they stretched a bit), and that should have eliminated that as a stressor at a bad time.

You say you gave them a 7liter drench yesterday, why? what was in the drench? if nothing but water then you may not have to flush at this point.