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lighting hours?

Discussion in 'Lights' started by bluntz561, Jun 6, 2014.

  1. Jun 6, 2014 #1

    bluntz561

    bluntz561

    bluntz561

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    I have sprouts and a week old plant and im running 600 watts in my 5 foot by 3 foot grow tent. whats the best lighting schedule and many feet above it should I place my lights?
     
  2. Jun 6, 2014 #2

    Rosebud

    Rosebud

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    I think most of us veg 24 hours. That 600 is pretty strong for seedlings though.. Maybe let them get a bit bigger. I really prefer T5's to veg under. they don't get as hot and they are quiet and the plants love them. Having said all that, 24/7 for lights. Marijuana doesn't need a rest period. Then in flower you flip to 12 hours of light.

    Greenest of seedling mojo to you... Enjoy your grow... maybe start a grow journal?
     
  3. Jun 6, 2014 #3

    bluntz561

    bluntz561

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    then what would be the best watts for the seedling? and ill look into the journal
     
  4. Jun 6, 2014 #4

    Sherrwood

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    I veg with t5's and finish with 1600 watts before flowering.
    600 is fine, as long as you don't burn the plant, hold your hand over the plant, under the light, if your hand burns the light is too close.
    Make sure there is good air flow as well.
     
  5. Jun 6, 2014 #5

    Sherrwood

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    Seedlings can grow outdoors right?
    So then it's not an issue of too much light but instead of burning or being too hot.
    Tiny plants and seedlings cant take much stress, thus make SURE your conditions are correct, aka, humidity, temp,.
     
  6. Jun 6, 2014 #6

    Hackerman

    Hackerman

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    I seeded and veg'd with my 400w and it burned them a little. I moved the light to about 4' away and it was OK.

    This is my first time with the lights at 24/7. I always felt the plants needed some down time and I used 18/6. I still feel bad that my little girls don't get any sleep but.... I'll try anything once. ;)
     
  7. Jun 6, 2014 #7

    Sherrwood

    Sherrwood

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    Plants will stretch more when sleeping in the dark, not good for indoors.
    Go 24/7
     
  8. Jun 6, 2014 #8

    Hackerman

    Hackerman

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    Yeah, that's what everyone says so I am trying it. Still, isn't there some necessary process that he plant needs that it can only do at night (other than flowering)?
     
  9. Jun 6, 2014 #9

    Hackerman

    Hackerman

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    I found an interesting thread discussing this and one of the posts had a rather lengthy explanation of what C3 and C4 plants do at night. Before I post that, here is what Ed says about it (although, we all know Ed is a little outdated some times)...

    Need the dark?
    Ask Ed: Ed Rosenthal

    One way in which plants are categorized is by the way they gather and handle carbon dioxide. Cannabis is a C3 plant. It uses the CO2 it gathers during the light period, when it is photosynthesizing. Plants designated C4 also gather CO2 during the dark period for use during the light period. Many C3 plants, including cannabis, do not need a rest period. They continue to photosynthesize as long as they are receiving light.

    The plant's photosynthetic rate determines its growth rate because the sugars are used by the plant to build tissue and for energy. Cannabis under continuous light will grow 33% faster than the same plants on an 18-6 light regime


    Here is the article on dark period....

    When The Lights Go Out
    by Keith Roberto and Brandon Matthews

    Everyone knows that plants need light for photosynthesis. What they don’t know is that plants need darkness, too! But why? Are they trying to get a restful sleep for a busy day of photosynthesis? Not many people try to grow plants in continuous light. It seems we all have a hunch that the dark cycle is an important part of a plant’s life, but what are they really doing? This article will shed some light on the mysterious and often misunderstood dark cycle.

    All plants have complex energy generating systems that function both in sunlight and in the dark. However, these reactions are coupled and rely on the products and intermediates produced by each biochemical process, day or night. In short, plants use light energy, water and CO2 during photosynthesis to generate sugar and oxygen that is later metabolized by the dark reactions to generate cellular CO2 and energy. Carbon dioxide generated in the dark cycle is used as the carbon source for maintenance molecules and some is even expelled by the plant. There are many common misconceptions regarding the role of CO2 in the dark, but it will soon become clear what plants do without their beloved sunlight.

    We must keep in mind that plants are pre-historic and have developed complex metabolic systems to adapt to an ever changing environment. Plants used to enjoy an atmosphere of highly concentrated carbon dioxide before they did us a favor and converted it to oxygen. As the globe varies greatly in temperature, humidity, and light conditions, plants have diversified to cope with their geographic neighborhood. Forced to adapt to modern times, plants now have specialized systems to utilize the relatively low concentration of atmospheric CO2, around 0.036% or 360ppm. To best provide for any plant species, an artificial environment should closely resemble their natural conditions. Once these conditions are understood, further steps can be taken to enhance plants’ metabolic activity.

    When the sun goes down, a greenhouse environment undergoes a few fundamental changes such as a shift in light wavelength and a decrease in temperature. As the sun sets, the wavelength of light generated by the sun shifts from blue to red. During the day, photosynthesis is most efficiently propelled by blue light (450nm) because it is a shorter wavelength and thus carries more photon energy. At sunset, red light (650nm) initiates a sequence of chemical responses that trigger essential metabolic processes to begin. Similar to humans, plants spend the day gathering energy (money) and generating (buying) food. In the evening they metabolize this food to provide their cells with the energy they need to form new cells, repair damaged cells, produce important enzymes and proteins, and prepare themselves for sunrise and photosynthesis. Essentially, they carry out cyclic processes known as a circadian rhythm, from Latin meaning “approximately a day.”

    All cellular events require metabolic energy, primarily in the form of ATP or NADH. These high energy molecules are manufactured by many biochemical processes, as plants have evolved to scavenge energy at all periods of the day. Photosynthesis is the process by which a plant uses light energy to break apart water, generating O2, protons and electrons. Oxygen is the magical energy transporter in all forms of aerobic respiration, and is used to transfer electrons in the production of the energy rich molecules ATP and NADH. Coupled to the products of photosynthesis, the Calvin Cycle fixates CO2 to generate 3-Carbon sugars during the light cycle. These sugars are later converted into 6-Carbon sugars like glucose and fructose, the primary substrates used to make cellular carbon and the bulk of ATP and NADH during aerobic respiration of the dark cycle.

    As fragile as plants appear to be, they are dedicated survivors and thrive in a wide range of light and temperature conditions. Temperature is as important a variable as light because it directly affects humidity, dissolved gas concentrations, water stress, and influences the ratio of water loss to carbon fixation. Changes in the leaf are most prevalent because they are the primary site of light absorption, sugar formation, and gas exchange. During the night, stomates in the leaf are nearly closed as the need for gas exchange is small and to prevent unnecessary water loss. During the day when photosynthesis is in full swing, the demand for CO2 uptake is great and stomata are wide open. Unfortunately, high temperatures increase water loss through the same stomatal openings that are trying to uptake CO2. Therefore, photosynthesis is both temperature and light dependent as an increase in temperature reduces the amount of carbon that is fixed, or carboxylated, into sugar by the Calvin Cycle. Photosynthesis reaches a maximum rate at a temperature of 30°C (85ºF) and remains efficient ± 5°C (75-95ºF).

    The leaf is a very complex organ. Stomates are surface pores on the underside of the leaf that are regulated by guard cells that vary the size of the pore in response to environmental cues. Water and CO2 cannot be simultaneously transported through the narrow stomata. Fortunately, during the day when water is readily available, many stomata are dedicated to CO2 uptake rather than water transpiration. This factor is known as the Transpiration Ratio. In a typical C-3 plant, approximately 500 molecules of water are lost for each single molecule of CO2 fixated by a leaf. The most abundant protein in the leaf, around 40%, is the one responsible for CO2 fixation, known as ribulose bisphosphate carboxylase/ oxygenase, commonly called rubisco and abbreviated RuBP. As the chemical name suggests, this protein is capable of accepting both CO2 and O2. This is a competitive reaction, but fortunately, RuBP has a much higher affinity for carbon dioxide than oxygen. Throughout a typical day, carboxylation occurs three times more than oxygenation of RuBP.

    There are a few barriers to CO2 uptake in a leaf. The first is boundary layer resistance where a thin, unstirred layer of air on the under surface of the leaf reduces CO2 diffusion. This resistance decreases with leaf size and wind speed. The second is intercellular air space resistance which hinders the diffusion of CO2 between layers in the leaf. The third, and major contributing factor, is stomatal resistance, which is a direct regulation by the stomata to gas exchange.

    Temperature has a direct affect on the transpiration ratio. Not only does heat induce water loss through stomata, an increase in temperature also reduces the concentration of dissolved CO2 in air, thus favoring oxygenation of RuBP rather than carboxylation. This negative effect is known as photorespiration, the use of oxygen instead of carbon dioxide. Be careful not to confuse this term with aerobic respiration which is the process of glycolysis, the breakdown of sugar to generate metabolic energy which will be discussed later. Shade plants have more chlorophyll per unit area and also have very low photorespiratory rates. Sun plants have more rubisco per unit area and can handle a higher photosynthetic load.

    It is always a good idea to supplement a greenhouse with CO2 during the light cycle when stomata are open and gas exchange is readily occurring. Simply doubling the ambient concentration to 700ppm will increase the photosynthetic rate by 30-60%. At optimum light and temperature conditions with supplemental CO2, photosynthesis is only limited by the ability of the Calvin Cycle to regenerate the first sugar acceptor molecule, ribulose-1,5-bisphosphate. On the other hand, in low CO2 concentrations more carbon dioxide is given off during aerobic respiration at night than diffuses into the leaf during the day. This ratio is known as the CO2 compensation point.

    Why would the rubisco protein have evolved to use both CO2 and O2? Plants are highly adaptable and need to be able to thrive in tropical conditions of great light intensity and high nighttime temperatures that favor water loss and low ambient CO2 concentration. Even a typical environment can have extreme conditions out of the average range. In addition to the Calvin Cycle to fixate carbon dioxide, plants have a backup mechanism that recovers lost potential when oxygen associates within the active site of RuBP. The Photorespiratory Carbon Oxidation cycle (PCO) is a minor process that converts oxygenated RuBP into a small amount of cellular CO2 by rearrangement of the amino acids glycine and serine.

    In fact, there are a few mechanisms by which plants concentrate intracellular CO2. The previous information is primarily regarding a typical tomato plant or flower, the C-3 class of plants in which photosynthesis produces a 3-Carbon sugar. Other classes of carbon fixation include C-4 and CAM processes of desert and grasslike plants that live in the hottest and driest conditions. The stomata of these plants are closed during the day and open at night to make the most efficient use of water. Because there is little to no photosynthesis occurring in the dark, the uptake of CO2 is low, and these C-4 and CAM mechanisms concentrate carbon dioxide to be used by the Calvin Cycle.

    During the dark cycle, plants undergo aerobic respiration. Respiration is divided into three parts: Glycolysis, the Kreb or Citric Acid cycle (TCA), and the Electron Transport Chain. Glycolysis is the breakdown of sugars to shuttle smaller sugar molecules and intermediates to the Kreb Cycle. The Kreb Cycle then generates cellular CO2 and energy rich molecules like ATP, NADH and FADH. These energy carriers are then incorporated into the electron transport chain, coupled to the protons and electrons produced during photosynthesis to establish a proton gradient across the chloroplast thylakoid membrane, similar to a battery. The Kreb Cycle generates on average 34 molecules of ATP per 6-Carbon sugar. This represents a net ATP gain as many more molecules are produced than consumed in all other metabolic processes.

    Red light plays an important role in the regulation of the dark cycle. Red light is the color of the rising and setting sun. Plants temporally govern most biochemical processes by a circadian rhythm, a type of internal biological clock. In a natural environment this rhythm is set to a 24 hour cycle, although a plant can be trained to operate on however many hours a light and dark cycle add up to. Interestingly enough, it is rhythmic because even in constant darkness the biological functions persist in a cyclic fashion, although if left in complete darkness over time the rhythm does fade away. Such processes include leaf movement, flowering and ripening response, and the regulation of enzymes and hormones. The main protein responsible for this response is known as phytochrome.

    Phytochrome, abbreviated Pr , is converted to its active form, Pfr , upon irradiance by red light (650nm). Conversely, it can also be reconverted and deactivated by irradiance of far-red light (720nm). The activity of phytochrome is not solely dependant on its active form, but rather on the ratio of Pfr to the total phytochrome concentration. In this way, plants can sense the movement of the sun and the length of day. In addition to absorbing in the red light region, phytochrome also shows a slight response in the blue-light region (450nm). In combination with other blue light photoreceptors, this response is responsible for solar tracking of leaves as the sun moves through the sky.

    The flowering response has been determined to be a result of the length of darkness a plant receives. Inversely, a plant that flowers with short nights are termed Long Day Plants (LDP). A typical vegetable plant that matures in early Fall, when nights become longer, are termed Short Day Plants (SDP). Because plants are adapted to absorbing whatever photons they can, whenever they can, as in a shady forest, interrupting the dark cycle with light can dramatically alter its circadian rhythm. SDP are more sensitive to this response than LDP. Just a five minute irradiance can have an affect, whereas a LDP would need about one hour of light interruption to take affect.

    Regulation of a plant’s energy metabolizing systems function on many levels. A biochemical pathway can only proceed as fast as the rate limiting enzyme or substrate. The primary source of regulation is genetic. Chloroplasts and mitochondria have their own genetic code that produce the enzymes needed for their respective process. The only way to up-regulate genetic expression is either through genetic engineering or producing more of these genes by making sure the plant has all its required nutrients to produce more new cells. Another mode of regulation is through the limiting pathway intermediate, as mentioned regarding CO2 supplementation where the limiting factor becomes the regeneration of ribulose-1,5-bisphosphate. Unfortunately, the regeneration of this substrate is also regulated by the electron transport chain. Sometimes a limiting reactant can be artificially added to increase metabolic activity, as in the addition of amino acids, hormones and cofactors like trace vitamins and minerals. Ultimately, the major mode of regulation is environmental. Changes in water properties, nutrient availability, temperature, light duration and strength, humidity, and dissolved gas concentrations are big obstacles that need to be orchestrated to achieve maximal metabolic activity.

    As one can see, plants are definitely not getting a restful sleep at night. To keep up with our demand for their products and beauty they need to work around the clock. Plants have concrete biochemical processes and care should be taken to provide the proper environment. One cannot expect a plant to flourish as if by magic. After all, we all have our own personal needs and your plants do too!

    Bibliography

    Berry, J.A., Downton, J.S. 1982. Environmental regulation of photosynthesis. Photosynthesis, Development, Carbon Metabolism and Plant Productivity. Vol 2: 263-343.Academic Press, New York.

    Ehleringer, J.R., Sage, R.F., Flanagan, L.B., Pearcy, R.W. 1991. Climate change and the evolution of C-4 photosynthesis. Trends in Ecological Evolution. Vol 6: 95-99.

    Taiz, L., Zeiger, E. 1998. Plant Physiology. 2nd Ed. Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, MA.

    Vince-Prue, D. 1986. The duration of light and photoperiodic responses. Photomorphogenesis in Plants. Martinus Nijhoff, Dordrecht, Netherlands.

    Wiskich, J.T., Dry, I.B. 1985. The tricarboxylic acid cycle in plant mitochondria: Its operation and regulation. Higher Plant Cell Respiration. Vol 18: 281-313. Springer, Berlin.

    Zeiger, E., Farquhar, G., and Cowan, I. 1987. Stomatal Function. Stanford University Press,Stanford, CA.
     
  10. Jun 6, 2014 #10

    Hackerman

    Hackerman

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    Summarized in a somewhat simpler read......

    Most green plants are classified as either C3 or C4 which represents how carbon(C) is used during photosynthesis.

    C4 plants temporarily store carbon dioxide(CO2) over the dark period to use for photosynthesis during the day. C4 plants slow down photosynthesis once the stored CO2 is used up and they need to gather it from the air. Which is why trees slow down photosynthesis in the afternoon even though the sun is still bright. This does NOT apply to cannabis.

    C3 plants(cannabis/veggies) gather CO2 only during the light period when they are photosynthesizing. During the dark period these plants only use oxygen for their metabolic life processes. They don't uptake CO2, nor do they use it. As soon and as long as the light is on, C3 plants gather and use CO2 for photosynthesis.

    C3 plants also have the ability to use higher concentrations of CO2 than what is found in the air. If the light is bright enough and the plants have sufficient nutes, their growth rate will accelerate from it(2000ppm vs. 400ppm of CO2), which increases yield. They can do this continuously, wihtout a dark period throughout the vegetative stage.

    The dark reaction is a process of photosynthesis that takes place in both darkness and light. It uses ATP and NADPH molecules that hold energy absorbed from light to break apart CO2 into it's base components. Because it's called a dark reaction and can occur in the dark, some people(Jorge) have said darkness is needed for this to occur. This Is Not So.

    Again people get anthropomorphic with their plant needs. People need rest, so plants must too. This is false as well. Light means growth. Scientifically. Although 18/6 will shock your plants less when you switch to 12/12, it's a personal choice whether you would rather sacrifice a little growth for a quicker adjustment or less photo confusion. If you want to save money or energy that's a personal choice too. Do what you need to do to make your growing scenario work.
     
  11. Jun 6, 2014 #11

    Rosebud

    Rosebud

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    Thank you Hackerman! I used to grow with t5s for veg then flip to 1000K and that worked well... Just don't burn the babies.
     
  12. Jun 6, 2014 #12

    Hackerman

    Hackerman

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    I am still reading up on this and I can't find a single valid argument for 18/6.

    Lot's of different opinions. Lots of arguments and flaming. LOL Still, not a single valid argument for 18/6.... yet. LOL
     
  13. Jun 6, 2014 #13

    kaotik

    kaotik

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    it works
    ?
    seems valid to me ;)

    i've got no negativity to 24/0 or anything.. but 18/6 (actually more 19/5) works just fine for me.

    my nodes are tight. hear that's the biggest advantage; tighter nodes and faster growth.
    well i'm usually waiting for room in bloom anyway.. so speed is no issue.
    and i have tight nodes. but honestly find them rather useless at the very bottom of the plant.. because unless you're LST'ing most people 'lollipop' to some degree and cut em off anyway.. so they did you no real benefit.
     
  14. Jun 6, 2014 #14

    Hackerman

    Hackerman

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    I have read a lot of valid arguments on both sides. 18/6 is going to cost less. Most people who have tried both say that there is little or no difference. Everyone admits to a little more stretch with 18/6 but, like you said, is that a bad thing?

    There was also the shock from 24/7 to 12/12. Opinions vary, again, but most agree that the plants take the change a little better from 18/6.

    I guess, like so many things in growing, it depends on your particular situation. Room height, species, cost and so many other personal variables.

    What do the commercial growers do? 18/6 over 24/7 would sure save a ton of money if you had 30 or 40 lights.
     
  15. Jun 6, 2014 #15

    MR1

    MR1

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    Keeping the temp at lights out and lights on close to the same will also limit stretch.
     

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