Nitrogen Deficiency in seedlings? (PICS)

[fortphoenix]

hey guys, i transplanted these into hydroton on december 30th and even though i overwatered them for the first week or so theres been real slow growth and the bottom leaves (theres only 3 or 4 sets of leaves) have been drooping/drying and turning yellow/white/brown and dying off and the new growth keeps coming up with yellowish tips. and the older the growth is, the more yellowish and light green the part of the plant seems to get.. its hard as hell to find picture comparisons of deficiencies for plants this small, i think its a nitrogen deficiency (or maybe magnesium?) but they’re so small its hard to tell and id hate to give them the extra nitrogen and be wrong, any thoughts?

strain- ak-48 by nirvana
water temp - 67, sterile res with 35% h2o2, 2 airstones, 20gal res
nutes - maxigro (i have "calmag plus” though)
ph- 5.8-5.9
ppm- 300
flood &drain in rapid rooter and hydroton, 1gal pots, flood 4x per day (every 6 hours)
400w hps on 24/7
canopy temps 74-78 humidity 35-60%

the one thing I’ve noticed is the 1 plant i re-transplanted (to check out the roots after overwatering) is now bigger and growing more then the other plant and the difference is the one i retransplanted is deeper in the pot then the other and the rapid rooter stays moist 24/7 whereas the other plants rapid rooter is bone dry, any comments or thoughts on that? also, the one i retransplanted has a few tiny red spots on one of the leaves if that means anything...either way, they’re both showing the same type of deficiency. any help is appreciated!!

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[Grower13]

I think maybe they(the plants) might have had a hard time getting nutrients when they first started out in the clay rocks......... maybe charge your rocks next time by soaking them in the nutrient solution you'll be using before putting the plants in the pots...... the new growth looks good and green......... so unless it begins to fade to yellow you may be back on track already.

 

[ShOrTbUs]

you should be running the water 24/7 and cut your ppms in half till they're a little bigger. they're not eating, but not because your nutrient solution isn't rich enough, but b/c they are thirsty.

for the suture, if you want to set up a flood and drain situation, you might want to check out 6x6x6 rockwool.

 

[The Hemp Goddess]

LOL--here in comes what makes it so hard to learn to grow.....I am of a completely opposite mind from shortbus. I would keep your flood and drain the same. But I would up the nutrients somewhat. When you grow in dirt, the plants obtain at least some nutrients from the dirt. In hydro, they get all their nutrients from the water you use. So, my first question is what is the ppms of your water before you put nutes in? Are you getting any pH drift?

Next, I am getting on my soapbox--I am going to try and encourage you to go with another nutrient line. General Hydroponics has been bought out my Scott's. Scotts is in bed with Monsanto, a company that is poisoning the earth and killing the people on it. And they don't care as long as they continue making the big bucks. There are numerous companies that you can buy from that care about protecting our planet. Stepping down off the soapbox now....

 

[ShOrTbUs]

fort, are you exchanging the air within your space?

35-60% humidity is a pretty dramatic fluxuation. 35% before you flood and drain? and 60% shorty after?

 

[fortphoenix]

I think maybe they(the plants) might have had a hard time getting nutrients when they first started out in the clay rocks......... maybe charge your rocks next time by soaking them in the nutrient solution you'll be using before putting the plants in the pots...... the new growth looks good and green......... so unless it begins to fade to yellow you may be back on track already.

thats a real good idea to soak the rocks in the nute solution first but the problem originally was that i put them in the hydroton with 1gal pot way too early but thats kind of what scares me is the new leaves start out a nice green.... but everyday, the older leaves keep getting more and more light green and its now at a point to where the lowest leaves are completely yellow/white and dying off

 

[fortphoenix]

you should be running the water 24/7 and cut your ppms in half till they're a little bigger. they're not eating, but not because your nutrient solution isn't rich enough, but b/c they are thirsty.

for the suture, if you want to set up a flood and drain situation, you might want to check out 6x6x6 rockwool.

fort, are you exchanging the air within your space?

35-60% humidity is a pretty dramatic fluxuation. 35% before you flood and drain? and 60% shorty after?

so you think they aren't getting watered enough? and I've done all my research on rock wool and to be honest i dont think the stuff is for me. it might have been easier to start with for my first hydro but id just rather stay away from the stuff but the humidity very slightly goes up when it floods, i say 35-60 because sometimes it gets as high as 60 when i have my humidifier maxed out but it usually stays around 45%

 

[fortphoenix]

LOL--here in comes what makes it so hard to learn to grow.....I am of a completely opposite mid from shortbus. I would keep your flood and drain the same. But I would up the nutrients somewhat. When you grow in dirt, the plants obtain at least some nutrients from the dirt. In hydro, they get all their nutrients from the water you use. So, my first question is what is the ppms of your water before you put nutes in? Are you getting any pH drift?

Next, I am getting on my soapbox--I am going to try and encourage you to go with another nutrient line. General Hydroponics has been bought out my Scott's. Scotts is in bed with Monsanto, a company that is poisoning the earth and killing the people on it. And they don't care as long as they continue making the big bucks. There are numerous companies that you can buy from that care about protecting our planet. Stepping down off the soapbox now....

hey hemp goddess, i posted this same question on another site and a few people said the same as you, that its my nutrients that need got be upped but my water its about 100-120ppm so technically my nute solution is only around 200ppm and my ph barely drifts, the most I've seen it drift was .8 up so it was at 5.92. so how many ppms total would you suggest? some guy suggested that i foliar feed them fish emulsions (or something like that) to bring the nitrogen up, any thoughts on that? and yeah i didn't hear about the monsanto aqusition until after i bought the nutes which pisses me off because i hate monsanto and go out of my way to buy food that doesnt contain gmo's or roundup. so i definitely don't want to smoke a monsanto product either lol

 

[The Hemp Goddess]

As hydro nutrients affect the plant almost immediately, I would feed them rather than giving them a foliar feeding. I have never used the Maxi products, so an not familiar with exactly how they work. With water that high in PPMs, I think I would be for buying bottled water if running hydro. Are you letting the water sit out for 12-24 hours to allow the chlorine to evaporate out? The high PPMs of the starting water could be causing you problems. I personally would start with water that is low in PPMs and keep the nutrient level at 300 to 400 PPMs. Also, start your nutrient solution at a bit lower pH and see if it drifts up a bit. There is not really a single pH level that allows uptake of all nutrients. A little drift is good. What are you using to measure your pH?

 

[fortphoenix]

As hydro nutrients affect the plant almost immediately, I would feed them rather than giving them a foliar feeding. I have never used the Maxi products, so an not familiar with exactly how they work. With water that high in PPMs, I think I would be for buying bottled water if running hydro. Are you letting the water sit out for 12-24 hours to allow the chlorine to evaporate out? The high PPMs of the starting water could be causing you problems. I personally would start with water that is low in PPMs and keep the nutrient level at 300 to 400 PPMs. Also, start your nutrient solution at a bit lower pH and see if it drifts up a bit. There is not really a single pH level that allows uptake of all nutrients. A little drift is good. What are you using to measure your pH?

you think its really high? i thought my ppms in the water were decent but no i don't let it sit out, i just pour it in and use it... you think it would be worth investing in a r.o system? my ppms are at 400 right now and have stayed steady at 400 and somebody else suggested i lower my ph to 5.5 aswell but my ph was 5.82 last night and was at 5.9 when i got home a few hours ago, is that the type of drift you're talking about? but i have a hanna phep5 ph meter and for ppms i have a regular bluelab ppm/ec/temp pen. another thing, I'm also afraid the plant that has the rapid rooter deeper in the pot (the one growing way faster) is going to get overwatered once i start flooding more often. you think i should take the plant out and reposition it or you think should just keep both plugs where they're at and see how they make out? sort of like an experiment, even though I'm really not trying to lose anymore seeds lol the plant thats clearly barely growing is the one with a super dry rapid rooter that isn't touching the water but that one was also way smaller/slower from the start, any thoughts on that? thank you for all your tips and help thus far

 

[Hushpuppy]

Don't worry about "overwatering" with hydro. Its impossible to overwater in hydro (believe it or not). The "overwatering" becomes a problem when you don't have enough oxygen in the water. The key to that is to have a good solid air pump that is blowing major bubbles in the rez continuously, and keeping the water temps between 65-70f. If you have those 2 things happening, then you can literally keep the plants roots submerged without any issues. If you can, setting the air pump up higher in the grow rooms will allow it to pump more oxygen into the water as O2 is lighter and floats higher in the rooms. BUT, you have to be careful to monitor the temps so that the warmer air up high doesn't run the water temps up too high.

 

[Hushpuppy]

Also, if the seedlings have yellowed cotyledons(the little round "seed" leaves) then you need to raise the ppm of the solution to about 350-400ppm as the roots are usually well established by the time the cotyledons yellow off. Also, having the seedlings under the HPS isn't helping as the light frequency doesn't feed the leaves well enough during veg. They need the 6500k light of the T5 floros.

As for the beginning ppm of the water, you need to have it tested to see what that is that is in the water. Its not terribly high but its enough to adversely affect the plants at this point. Once you know whats IN the water, then you can adjust and account for it (if needed)

 

[The Hemp Goddess]

It is imperative that you let water sit out for 12 hours or so before you add nutrients. Part of your PPMs could well be chlorine and it could well be that chlorine is causing at least part of your problems. If you have a small air pump and an air stone, bubbling helps the chlorine evaporate quicker. Let's see what your PPMs are when you get rid of the chlorine. ROs are expensive and waste a lot of water, so unless you really need one, it is not a good use of your money. For a small grow, buying bottled water may be a better option.

Re: pH drift--yes, that is what I am talking about. As pH generally tends to drift up, we often start at the low end of acceptable pH range and let it drift up to 6.0 r so.

I wouldn't worry about the rapid rooter that is deeper. When I do DWC, I set the rapid rooters right on the bottom of the net cups and fill the res until it is at the bottom of the cups until the roots grow through the cup. They do not get/stay overwet. I also think you are transplanting too early. Let the plants get a couple of sets of leaves and very good root growth from the cube before transplanting into such large containers. It wastes nutrients when they are this small and it makes it very hard to deliver the right amount of moisture to the plants.

 

[fortphoenix]

Don't worry about "overwatering" with hydro. Its impossible to overwater in hydro (believe it or not). The "overwatering" becomes a problem when you don't have enough oxygen in the water. The key to that is to have a good solid air pump that is blowing major bubbles in the rez continuously, and keeping the water temps between 65-70f. If you have those 2 things happening, then you can literally keep the plants roots submerged without any issues. If you can, setting the air pump up higher in the grow rooms will allow it to pump more oxygen into the water as O2 is lighter and floats higher in the rooms. BUT, you have to be careful to monitor the temps so that the warmer air up high doesn't run the water temps up too high.

Also, if the seedlings have yellowed cotyledons(the little round "seed" leaves) then you need to raise the ppm of the solution to about 350-400ppm as the roots are usually well established by the time the cotyledons yellow off. Also, having the seedlings under the HPS isn't helping as the light frequency doesn't feed the leaves well enough during veg. They need the 6500k light of the T5 floros.

As for the beginning ppm of the water, you need to have it tested to see what that is that is in the water. Its not terribly high but its enough to adversely affect the plants at this point. Once you know whats IN the water, then you can adjust and account for it (if needed)

that makes total sense and my air pump is on top of my tent and i assume i have plenty of air blowing in the res (2 4" air stones powered by 127gph at pump) but my res temps are good, 67.8 degrees at this very moment but thats a real good tip i never thought about with making sure the air pump isn't blowing hot air but I'm thinking about getting a reverse osmosis setup and using half r.o and half tap water just to lighten up the ppms but yeah the cotyledons are completely yellow/brown and i raised the ppm to 400 and yeah i learned my lesson with the hps but right my my t5 is being used by some northern lights i just sprouted like a week ago. which i wanted to ask you, what does the curling up of leaf tips mean? one of my northern lights was severely underwatered (leafs drooping and touching the stem) so watering them and in about an hour they popped back but their tips seem like they're drying out and they're pointed up which happened to me on a previous plant and i cant find any info on it. ill post a pic of my ak-48s and the northern light in question. thanks for the help

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[fortphoenix]

It is imperative that you let water sit out for 12 hours or so before you add nutrients. Part of your PPMs could well be chlorine and it could well be that chlorine is causing at least part of your problems. If you have a small air pump and an air stone, bubbling helps the chlorine evaporate quicker. Let's see what your PPMs are when you get rid of the chlorine. ROs are expensive and waste a lot of water, so unless you really need one, it is not a good use of your money. For a small grow, buying bottled water may be a better option.

Re: pH drift--yes, that is what I am talking about. As pH generally tends to drift up, we often start at the low end of acceptable pH range and let it drift up to 6.0 r so.

I wouldn't worry about the rapid rooter that is deeper. When I do DWC, I set the rapid rooters right on the bottom of the net cups and fill the res until it is at the bottom of the cups until the roots grow through the cup. They do not get/stay overwet. I also think you are transplanting too early. Let the plants get a couple of sets of leaves and very good root growth from the cube before transplanting into such large containers. It wastes nutrients when they are this small and it makes it very hard to deliver the right amount of moisture to the plants.

damn i was under the impression that the chlorine and my ppms was straight but yes i have 2 air stones powered by 127 gph pump but i was thinking about getting a r.o filter and mix tap with r.o water but my ph was actually a 5.95 after just checking it, you think i should lower it? but yea i learned my lesson on transplanting early now i just had a watering problem i explained to hushpuppy. i posted updated pictures above as well

 

[Hushpuppy]

That curling is probably from the unbalanced moisture level in the medium. I would be watering those 5-6x in a 24hr period. the reason being that the Hydroton doesn't hold a lot of moisture and has large air spaces inbetween the pebbles that can allow the roots to dry out some between waterings. That is causing the seedlings to struggle. The pebbles aren't going to hold very much nutrients in or on them that would be available to the roots except when they are fully wet. being under warm light, there is going to be a lot of drying which will make it easier for the pebbles and roots to dry out.

I have plants in 3gal netpots of coco coir that are suspended over water, with roots hanging in the water and I still water them 3x in 24hrs to maintain the level of moisture around the feeder roots that are in the coco.

 

[Hushpuppy]

If you want an easier time of starting seedlings and getting them good and healthy before going to the hydro system? I suggest you get some of the red/blue 12oz solo cups and a bag of coco croutons. Then take a nail and get it hot enough to melt 3-4 holes at the bottom outside of the cups so that they will drain out water. Fill the cups with the croutons and then soak them with a solution of water/calmag/root tonic. Then create a hole in the center of the medium and set you rooter cubes in it and slightly bury the rooter with the croutons. Hand water these and keep them in 76-78f air space until they get about 4-5 leaf nodes on them, then you can slide the whole root mass and croutons in one piece out of the cup and into the net pots and fill with the pebbles. At that point you can set them straight into the vegging space in the hydro system.

I would say to keep the seedlings in the cups for about 2 weeks. As soon as the cotyledons begin to yellow, begin to mix a small amount of grow nutrients into the solution. As the plants start to take off growing, you need to gradually increase the strength of the nutrients. You can cut off the root tonic once the cotyledons yellow off completely.

 

[Hushpuppy]

As for the water issue itself. It will be cheaper to take a water sample and have it tested. Or if you are on public water, contact the water department and ask them what is in the water to account for the level of TDS that is there, and determine what is the predominant element in the water.

Don't worry about them asking you why you want to know this because they get this question constantly from companies and businesses in the area. If they do ask why, just tell them that you are the owner of multiple rental properties in the area and you want to know if you need to install filtration systems on these properties

 

[fortphoenix]

That curling is probably from the unbalanced moisture level in the medium. I would be watering those 5-6x in a 24hr period. the reason being that the Hydroton doesn't hold a lot of moisture and has large air spaces inbetween the pebbles that can allow the roots to dry out some between waterings. That is causing the seedlings to struggle. The pebbles aren't going to hold very much nutrients in or on them that would be available to the roots except when they are fully wet. being under warm light, there is going to be a lot of drying which will make it easier for the pebbles and roots to dry out.

I have plants in 3gal netpots of coco coir that are suspended over water, with roots hanging in the water and I still water them 3x in 24hrs to maintain the level of moisture around the feeder roots that are in the coco.

If you want an easier time of starting seedlings and getting them good and healthy before going to the hydro system? I suggest you get some of the red/blue 12oz solo cups and a bag of coco croutons. Then take a nail and get it hot enough to melt 3-4 holes at the bottom outside of the cups so that they will drain out water. Fill the cups with the croutons and then soak them with a solution of water/calmag/root tonic. Then create a hole in the center of the medium and set you rooter cubes in it and slightly bury the rooter with the croutons. Hand water these and keep them in 76-78f air space until they get about 4-5 leaf nodes on them, then you can slide the whole root mass and croutons in one piece out of the cup and into the net pots and fill with the pebbles. At that point you can set them straight into the vegging space in the hydro system.

I would say to keep the seedlings in the cups for about 2 weeks. As soon as the cotyledons begin to yellow, begin to mix a small amount of grow nutrients into the solution. As the plants start to take off growing, you need to gradually increase the strength of the nutrients. You can cut off the root tonic once the cotyledons yellow off completely.

As for the water issue itself. It will be cheaper to take a water sample and have it tested. Or if you are on public water, contact the water department and ask them what is in the water to account for the level of TDS that is there, and determine what is the predominant element in the water.

Don't worry about them asking you why you want to know this because they get this question constantly from companies and businesses in the area. If they do ask why, just tell them that you are the owner of multiple rental properties in the area and you want to know if you need to install filtration systems on these properties

so watering the seedlings should i use a slight bit of maxigro or calmag plus? and do you think i should water them with bottled water or use tap? it seemed like the seedlings were doing very well until the rapid rooters got too dry now its hard as hell to keep them evenly moist so I'm going to try watering more often. it just sucks because theres a huge difference on how the hydroton and rapid rooter hold water so you have to find like the perfect watering amount and i had them like 3" from the t5 (2 24w bulbs) but you could see they're getting light burned so i put them further away from the light but the cotyledons are already turning yellow and I definitely think this is going to be the last time i start seeds like this its been pretty stressful trying to start them the way i have but i tried calling my water department and they're close until monday but i think I'm going to buy a r.o. system anyway because i was doing more research on them and i had no idea they filtered out as much stuff as they do, like the r.o is the ultimate water cleaner, just sucks its like 2-3 hundred for a decent one that pumps out a decent amount of gallons per day

 

[Hushpuppy]

I would say at this point, you are probably better off using bottled water and the calmag(2ml) and about 2ml of maxigro to 1 gal of water.