Please explain the phrase "Penetration" in reference to lights.

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Wow, what happened here. Good info Stoney, I don't understand why things have to be like this. I am done as well, but it was good while it lasted. Good info stoney
 
massproducer said:
Wow, what happened here. Good info Stoney, I don't understand why things have to be like this. I am done as well, but it was good while it lasted. Good info stoney
Thanks massproducer, after reflecting on the issue, I've decided to continue with our discussion. I'm not going to let a couple of people with bad attitudes stop me from having a decent conversation.

I'll retrieve that first book, read it, gain the bibliography from it and go from there.

We'll continue in a few weeks when the book comes in.

Stoney.
 
Sorry mass', potus, kgb, tater... and anyone else that has been following along, possibly learning something along the way.
I guess some failed to "grasp" the message from my last post.
If you have something to "contribute".. post it. If you don't, don't post.. pretty simple.
I will be monitoring this as much and as often as is feasable. Please, carry on the discussion. I'm sure the 'greater' majority are enjoying and learning something from it.
 
Tater said:
In my opinion I do agree with you that worrying about light reaching the lower branches is a futile effort in most grow situations and most likely will not increase yields enough to be worth it.

Tater
I kinda want to go back to this statement and see if I can prove it false. I'll even try to close with a little guesswork on penetration! By no means am I a MJ expert, the complete opposite in fact. But I am almost done with a degree in biology and have studied effects on some plants, but not those with fruiting bodies or other special production (THC etc.) Its well proven that the more area of canopy and leaf that a plant has light hit, the better off that plant will be. The chloroplasts in a leaf have special compounds that absorb the energy of photon. This energy is used during the carbon cycle to fix carbon and create the sugars in the plant. The sugars are then transported thruout the plant and used to grow. So if you have a great canopy that blocks light to the bottom, the canopy is using that light energy for the benefit of the whole plant, yay! However those lower leaves are receiving photons with less energy and are unable to pass off as many electrons to the carbon cycle, thus less sugars. Lighting the plant from the bottom and sides will increase the area of leaf that is receiving optimum lighting, thus increasing the sugars produced, thus increasing the productivity of the plant. I'd love to do an actual test of this but I have a very small area for growing, and its just not worth it to me to have plants that may produce less than optimal results right now. My whole argument is likely only viable in an indoor environment. The amount of energy given off by the sun is far more than what lighting with under lighting would do for you. The reflection of sun off the ground is likely more than manmade lighting can do! (At least with reasonable expense). So my conclusion there is that throwing a couple CFLs or such under the canopy will indeed give more energy to the plant and thus should increase the yields all over the plant, not just at the base buds.
As for penetration I'd have to hazard and guess that light from a larger light source would have photons of a higher energy level (quanta) and so give more light to those leaves beneath the canopy. If I can remember my hated chemistry right photons have different energy levels corresponding to amount of electrons that can be knocked free. This is dependent on the amount of energy that created said photons as well as the wavelength in which is travels. This is where it gets tricky as you have to delve into quantum physics where light becomes a particle as well as a wave and is seriously wacky and more in depth than I want to remember. Basically the photon (particle) of light strike the chloroplast and gives energy to electrons in the chloroplasts freeing them from their bonds. The number of electrons knocked off would be equivalent to the number of electrons the chloroplasts are able to move to the electron chain which feeds the carbon cycle. This part is true, I even went back and grabbed my old notes! What I don't know for sure is whether or not a 1000w light actually creates photons of a high energy level or just more photons on a whole. If they are stronger they would:
1. Give more energy to those chloroplast stacks per each photon.
2. If the stack is bombarded with more photons than it can use at one time its possible for those photons would actually pass thru the leaf matter as a high energy photon has been shown to pass through solid matter. Or bounce off where it could be reflected by another leaf and end up traveling farther deeper into the canopy than a photon at a lower energy level. Both would truly give that higher wattage light a deeper penetration.

Where it is also tricky is that I don't know what exactly a lumen meter reads. If it reads the wavelength of light it would indeed be less under the canopy even tho there are still high energy photons bouncing around because the speed in which said photon travels would be disrupted, altering the wavelength.
So there is my brief hypothesis on both the lighting and penetration factors. Take all of that with grain of salt as I have no experimental proof saying that is what happens, I'm just using the concepts that I know. I'd love to test it someday, or I'd try to help setup a experiment where we could legitimately test this hypothesis. If only my school would let me use their funding and equipment....
 
Hello Larnek, well thought out post. There are a few things that have to be considered in your offered hypothesis.

1. Plant hormones and how they're used by the plant.

2. Light reflection is virtually non-existent from the canopy.

3. Individual Photon strength doesn't vary in this application to any useful degree. The amount of Photons most certainly does, but in essence, that results in only more Photons being reflected by the canopy. Not enough pass through the physical leaf to matter and unless the leaf barrier is disturbed enough to allow light penetration, the additional light would only be added to that which is already reflected by a lesser strength light.

However, the amount of light that can be utilized by the plant is much more than most people direct at the plant. Natural sunlight supplies approximately 10K lumens per/sq ft on a clear day at the equator. To supply this amount in an indoor grow would cause an offset cost to deal with the generated heat and wouldn't be economically feasible. With the cost factors considered, a 5K lumen per/sq ft supply is about as large as anyone would want to go. The results balance with the costs of maintaining a proper environment for the plants.

4. Ground reflection is something that is not desired. When the underside of a leaf is hit by reflected light, the plant enters into a competitive cycle of growth. The plant reacts to the reflection as being from another plant that is competing for the available light. The plant reaction will be to send more growth hormones to the stems to enable them to grow faster and taller, thus outgrowing it's neighbors. With MJ, this is counter productive in an effort to maintain close intranodal length to maximize bud production per/cu ft of available space. This problem of competitive growth as a result of reflected light is a well known phenomenon that is most obvious in the low light conditions of the lower branches of tall plants.

5. If more lumens are provided to the lower branches while leaving them in their natural position, the result will be negligible. The plant will continue to send most of the growth hormones to the upper branches and as a result, the lower branches will benefit only slightly from the additional light. The exception to this is when LST is used to redirect the hormones to alternate locations on the plant. If this is done, the "new" top growth will show a marked increase in growth as a result of the redirection of plant hormones. If this new top growth is what *was* bottom growth prior to the redirection, then yes, the now top growth will be heavier with bud growth in respect to MJ. However, the "old" top growth, now not receiving the same growth hormone levels it was, will negate any advantage of the effort. Nothing will be gained in regards to harvest weight.

I think I covered each of your ideas. Your thoughts are well directed, but have already been tested via scientific method and the results published in countless articles.

Great post man! Gains cannot be realized until *someone* pushes the envelope. Sometimes, the known steps must be done over and over with only slight variations to discover something that has inadvertently been missed by everyone else.
 
I was actually unaware of the ground reflection causing stretch, not surprising as I'm not a plant major but a microbio major, just had to do some of those classes on the way. Interesting stuff!
The thing I think about lighting the bottom is this:
1. I'm not worried about increasing the size of the bottom with lighting, tho that may or may not occur. I'm saying that the increase in sugar production allowed by further lighting of the bottom should increase the amount of energy that is given to the top areas of the plant, which should increase the size of the top cola(s). I'd think that the increase in production would more than offset cheapness of running 2 or 3 CFLs lighting the bottom. That was my mine hypothesis, I sort of rambled off after that. :) Basically what I'm saying is the more area of leaf that can be used to produce sugars should then increase the total yield of the plant. Maybe not a huge increase in any one area, but a small increase over a large area of buds, (especially if you're doing 5 foot indoor trees!?) would be significant. 1/2 gram or so per bud site over such a huge plant would end up pretty significant in my opinion.
 
Larnek said:
I'm saying that the increase in sugar production allowed by further lighting of the bottom should increase the amount of energy that is given to the top areas of the plant, which should increase the size of the top cola(s).
I agree, providing the side light was added in a manner that prevented any bottom leaf lighting. I seen people put linear fluorescents down the middle of the plant in a manner that made it impossible for the leaves to adjust position enough to redirect the leaf tops towards the light. When light is coming from as many as three directions at once, it becomes a negative influence instead of a positive addition.

Whether or not the additional bud growth would offset the cost of the additional lighting would of course be determined by how much current draw resulted from their use as compared to the amount of weight increase after curing. If proper testing was done, it would indeed be interesting to find out.
 
Yeah, that's what I was saying, definitely one of those things you'd have experiment with scientifically as possible, same strain, same nutes, same grow condition other than one gets lit from above, other from a side or some other way that'd have to be figured out. Of course since I'm one of those people with linear fluorescents I guess I'm a potential test subject. I will be using the same strains next grow, tho its nirvana's citral which from reading here is notoriously unstable genetically so even then it wouldn't work great.
 
Larnek said:
As for penetration I'd have to hazard and guess that light from a larger light source would have photons of a higher energy level (quanta) and so give more light to those leaves beneath the canopy. If I can remember my hated chemistry right photons have different energy levels corresponding to amount of electrons that can be knocked free. This is dependent on the amount of energy that created said photons as well as the wavelength in which is travels. This is where it gets tricky as you have to delve into quantum physics where light becomes a particle as well as a wave and is seriously wacky and more in depth than I want to remember. Basically the photon (particle) of light strike the chloroplast and gives energy to electrons in the chloroplasts freeing them from their bonds. The number of electrons knocked off would be equivalent to the number of electrons the chloroplasts are able to move to the electron chain which feeds the carbon cycle. This part is true, I even went back and grabbed my old notes! What I don't know for sure is whether or not a 1000w light actually creates photons of a high energy level or just more photons on a whole.
There are two things you need to consider when dealing with photon beams: intensity and energy. The intensity concerns how many photons per unit area are striking the plant's leaves. The energy deals with the energy of each individual photon. Think of intensity like traffic on a freeway (light or heavy) and energy like the speed of the cars (fast or slow).

Intensity
With bulbs, intensity is the strength or power output. It's basically how many lumens the bulb emits. A 2000 lumen bulb will do the same job as two 1000 lumen bulbs.

Energy
With bulbs, energy is the spectrum of the light. Ever heard of warm or white or sunlight or (insert description of light) bulbs? These depend on the energy of the light. Sometimes you will see a temperature on the bulb package, like 4000K, 5500K, or 6500K. (The K stands for Kelvin, the internationally accepted scientific standard for temperature. To convert to Celsius just subtract 273.) Obviously the light bulb isn't actually getting that hot; this just denotes the spectrum of energy that would typically be emitted by black body radiation at that temperature. Hint: the sun can be considered a black body. Wikipedia says the sun's surface temperature is 5778K and that's why if you're using fluorescents, many suggest getting 5500K bulbs. That is, they mimic the sun's light spectrum. Two 2500K bulbs WILL NOT be the same as one 5000K bulb.

If you remember the first equations they taught in Physics, energy is dependent on the wavelength of light. Since light bulbs emit many wavelengths it's appropriate to talk about the spectrum of wavelengths. But as Larnek pointed out, light is best described using a wave-particle duality theory. That's why you can think about discrete photons (particle) that have a wavelength (wave). There are some really neat experiments that show how light simultaneously acts as both.

Photosynthesis
The electrons everyone's concerned with are in the reaction center of the chlorophyll. They are highly-conjugated systems that have evolved to have the same energy gaps that correspond with the strongest portions of sunlight's energy spectrum. Basically what happens is photons, either from the sun or your bulbs, hits the pigments in the reaction center of clorophyll. These pigments have their electrons excited, redox reactions occur, etc ad nauseum.

Putting it all together, a stronger bulb will produce more photons. More photons hitting the leaf will cause photosynthesis to proceed faster and the plants will grow faster. A stronger bulb will emit approximately the same spectrum as a weaker bulb.

One might ask if a bulb with more energy would help. If a bulb was used with a spectrum that had more high-energy wavelengths than low-energy wavelengths, what effect would that have?

Think about it. The plant's pigments have spent millions of years evolving to match the sun's spectrum as best as possible. If the sun's spectrum peaks at XXX nm, YYY nm, and ZZZ nm (nm=nanometer, a convenient unit of measure for wavelengths), then the top three pigments in the chlorophyll are best excited by XXX nm, YYY nm, and ZZZ nm light. So a higher-energy bulb isn't necessarily what you want. The farther you shift your bulb's spectrum from that of sunlight, the less energy the pigments can absorb. The thing about quantum mechanics is that energy levels are discrete; you can't just pump in any amount of energy. The electrons need discrete quanta and giving it too much energy (like UV light) won't help.

If you've ever thought about LED lights, they work by emitting a very small range of wavelengths. A light bulb that encompasses all visible light will have wavelengths of 400 nm to 750 nm with portions at higher (infra-red) wavelengths, too. LEDs only deliver a few Watts of light but they invest it all in one (in reality, a small range) wavelength. That's why they always have a color; blue LEDs emit 450-460 nm. Their wattage is low so the intensity is low; few photons are being emitted compared with other bulbs. But the energy is tweaked the match precisely the energy pigment electrons need to enter photosynthesis. So the argument for LEDs is that they use less power but more of it is absorbed by the plant. (I understand the many arguments but I won't present them here. I'm just trying to apply quantum mechanics to LEDs as an example.

This whole reply was basically a lesson on the symantecs of intensity and energy. Gotta go harvest now! :D:D:D
 
Thanks 100%, that was a hell of a post! This is the type of information that is needed in abundance here on MP!

To be totally honest, the starter post I made for this thread was an attempt to gather some posts that contain pure information that has been discovered and confirmed through proper scientific method.

I was starting to see too many anecdotal instructional posts and too few really informative, accurate, detailed posts.

Please help the site with more information about anything you might feel beneficial to the group.

The next time you start thinking of some of the more detailed and specific points of interest in growing our favorite plant, please start a thread to examine that process in detail. This is something the entire group can benefit from.

Thanks again, and I look forward to reading more of your information in the future!

Stoney.
 
100percent brings up a point that I would love to experiment with sometime as well. I'm really interested in using LEDs not as a main light but as a supplemental with my HPS. I think LEDs would far far FAR surpass fluorescents as a supplemental due to the specificity of the light wavelength. I think growing with just LEDs is a bit of a pipefream as far as big yields are concerned. Just not enough light energy for the plant to produce large buds. But I think with an HPS the LEDs would give a much needed boost to plants. People complain about the stretch the HPS produce in veg and even in flowering. I wonder if LEDs would allow the plant to reduce stretch in flower with the HPS. I know that they stretch in flower because thats what they're genetics tell them to do, but I'm curious as to whether or not LEDs would reduce the stretch and promote more bud growth. Just something I've been wondering about while reading some guys grow journals here with LEDs. No one has used them as a supplement yet and I want to know! I'm also still kinda messed up from a late late late night/morning partyathon so I hope this makes sense.. I wish I had some bud now to help out with the dead feeling.
Oh and pretty awesome for one of your first posts 100percent. ;)
 
Larnek said:
I'm really interested in using LEDs not as a main light but as a supplemental with my HPS.
From what reading I've done concerning NASA's quest to find the absolute best form of plant growing that can be done in the smallest space with the least amount of energy, LED's are the number one choice of lighting that they've tried so far.

Lots of our present day gadgets and commodities are byproducts of research done by NASA during it's history. Because of the inherent challenges presented by space exploration, they have drawn some of the most intelligent, best paid, perfectly logistically resourced people on the planet.

They are currently researching how to increase the output of plant usable lumens and exactly what precise spectrum and spread to use to gain the most from every watt of energy.

If you discover anything really interesting in your trials, give them an email. If you route it to the correct person, they'll read it and either dismiss it as something they've already discovered or they will call you for an interview. (No kidding).

Good luck to you in your research and I hope you stick with it until you discover something that is currently unknown.

I would keep the marijuana plant thing from them however. Perhaps you could experiment on some maters too! hehe
 
No way, if I found something really important I would totally attribute it to MJ. Take that government! :)
As for the LEDs I do think they are a great form of lighting, just not feasible on a private scale right now due to costs. Well to me anyways, maybe to some big timers. I was looking at some new LED grow lights, the UFOs you mighta seen, something like $600 a light- "Consuming only 80 watts of power and producing virtually no heat, it boasts light intensity and growth rates exceeding that of a 400W HPS system" they also go on to state that its good for 3x3ft areas. Very interesting but yeah that cost thing again. I'd believe that 80 watts of LEDs IS getting close to the level necessary for growth but I think you'd still need several in order to get a good yield. Long term for big grow schemes, yes I think it'd be worth it due to lessening the cost of power and ventilation systems. I'd love to see some results from that light but haven't found any yet.
 
Found this test on tomatoes in a 3x2 area with the UFO with good results. So yeah its possible, still think you'd need more tho.
hxxp://www.greenpinelane.com/ufo_light_test.aspx
 

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