We really need a Breeding and propagation section

[seattle420]

true breeding of marijuana takes years and years to get enough plants.

I wouldn't reccomend it for most people especially if they haven't grown for many many years.

A true breeding strain is two plants bred over and over until their offspring show consistent traits of their combined parentage. Most hybrid crosses are unstable in this regard. Maybe twenty percent will be identical to thier parents. The only way to reproduce them consistently is to clone them. Most of the true breeders are landraces that did not reproduce and select indoors. It is not a matter of weak genetics or good ones it is a matter of consistent expression of a valued genotype in the phenotype.

 

[seattle420]

I would NOT reccomend "BREEDING" marijuana.

you'd have to be one hell of a farmer with one hell of a big farm to do it properly.

A true breeding strain is two plants bred over and over until their offspring show consistent traits of their combined parentage.

Most hybrid crosses are unstable in this regard.

Maybe twenty percent will be identical to thier parents. the rest will be swhag.

The only way to reproduce them consistently is to clone them.

Most of the true breeders are landraces that did not reproduce and select indoors.

It is not a matter of weak genetics or good ones it is a matter of consistent expression of a valued genotype in the phenotype

if you all of a sudden find just a few seeds in your buds, you've only got a 20 percent cjhance that it is any good.

say you missed a male plant in the back of your grow your gonna have to bleach the hell out of your room cause there's pollen everywhere and you wann grow marijuana san seeds. SINSEMILIA! if your breeding alot of seeds in a short amount of time they will more than likely be hermie swhag.

get some real deal seeds, choose mother plants, and then clone the hell out of em!

 

[astra007]

ah, tell me oh wise 1 - where do you purchase a mother plant? and breeders want pollen. if ya dont know what yer talking about -

im a breeder and have several breeder buds - you definately have never been in a breeder set up; now have you. you can use any F1 to breed with or a land based original. look up the definition of an F1. and we use seed not clones.

 

[can of ownage]

astra ur the one that lead me here from 3 different forums all in kindness and in the light of a promise for some knowledge so im dying to see this section do u think u could just mayb write a lil bit of what u know and what needs to be done what to look for how to do it etc.? your my weed rolemodle ( i know that sounds bad ) but could u just write a lil at a time to help us noobs out? ( and thanx for answering my email... id be lost without ur guidance)

 

[seattle420]

oh moderate one astra, you are the one who always answers my posts as soon as I post em.
man, you sure are on your computer alot.

when do you find enough time to breed all those plants?

I didn't say anything about your suggestion except that *I* Me*myself*
wouldn't reccomend breeding marijuana indoors anywhere except maybe holland.

I'd just say this, there ought to be two sections, one for "PROPAGATION" (doesn't that mean cloning r cutting)
and one for "BREEDING"

yeah man, learn about breeding on a forum, good idea!
the world needs more schwag.

to answer your question:

I get the mother plant from some seeds that were imported from holland.

 

[astra007]

hey can - go to indoor growing and i will answer all you ask or you can pm me - no problem. ok bud. and seattle - plants grow by themselves and im disabled so ya i do spend alot of time on my computer - your point? and any female plant can be a clone mother my friend. does not have to come from holland. what you want to breed 2 plants are 2 separate F1 stable hybrids. you will then get only 2 separate pheno's wherein each is dominent. the male or the female line. then ya choose.

 

[Mutt]

yeah man, learn about breeding on a forum, good idea!
the world needs more schwag.

to answer your question:

I get the mother plant from some seeds that were imported from holland.

Well, I beg to differ to that entire statement. Where do you think a lot of seeds come from. Some of those "famous" breeders DO live in the states. What about new strains. Where do you think those come from. Dude, this is such an "un-educated" answer to making crosses, trait isolation, hybridization.
Schwagg HA. Its all in how you do it. Try doing some reading before making such a statement please.
Google, Robert Connel Clark; Mendel's Law; Backcrossing; Marijuana Trait isolation; and just about anything written by SOMA or DJ Short. That'll get you started on the right path.

 

[Hick]

ah, tell me oh wise 1 - where do you purchase a mother plant? and breeders want pollen. if ya dont know what yer talking about - s.t.f.u.

im a breeder and have several breeder buds - you definately have never been in a breeder set up; now have you. you can use any F1 to breed with or a land based original. look up the definition of an F1. and we use seed not clones.

"Breeding" and "seed makeing" are two totally different aspects.
"Breeding" requires a facility where numerous males and females can be grown to maturity for carefull selection of desirable traits from various phenotypes.After several generations of back crossing and inner breeding, you may be lucky enough to produce a stable F1.
Seattle is correct in saying "breeding should be left to those with a fluent understanding of genetics and heredity, along with a facility that accomodates for it." Breeders are people like Shantibaba, DJ Short, Breeder Steve, Chimera, ect.

"Seed makeing" only requires a female plant and a bit of pollen. We can all do this!! and seed makeing is what astra is talking about.."IMHO" and not breeding.
I would still urge even the lowly seedmakers () to use some selection process in their efforts. "Choose only the best[/u] do away with the rest." ..select for qualities that you desire and are beneficial to further improving the chacteristics of the plants.
F1 hybrids (the first cross of two diffeent strains) will quite often produce a very desirable fast growing, good producing plant(hybrid vigor). Often exhibiting near 50/50 characteristics of the parent plants and all quite similar.
(example: White widow female X Blueberry pollen) This forms an F1 hybrid and not a "Blue Widow". F2's will exhibit more diversity. Here's where large facilities and 'educated selection' come into play. Here is a simple bit of math that reflects the possible(hypothetical) # of variances through an F3 hybridization.
[FONT=&quot]"P-1: Usually on P-1 being the parent Generation there are 2 variances or phenotypes. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

F-1: This being the first finial generation from the parent line.
F-1 can have as many as 4-8 different phenotypes.

F-2: Being the second finial generation from the parent line.
F-2 can produce as many as 16-32 different phenotypes.

F-3: This being the third finial generation from the parent line.
F-3 can produce as many as 64-128 different phenotypes."[/FONT]

The crossing of two parents of the same 'stabalized' strain(P1s),(example WWxWW) should produce plants that closely resemble the parent strain. The problem here, is called "inbreeding depression". (Caused by the deletion/elimination of certain "alleles" over generations) Causing a loss of vigor and overall plant health and quality. Eventually leading to a less desirable product.
I'm NOT trying to discourage anyone from makeing seeds, quite the opposite. I would still encourage interested people to make that hybrid cross, make yourself a few seeds, make enough to pass a few on to a prospective grower free gratis. I'm all for getting as many quality seeds into as many prospective growers hands as is possible without further depleting the genetic diversity of the plant.

 

[Mutt]

Hey Hick,
Isn't it the early flowering males that cause a decrease in the potency of the hybrid. Isn't it the healthy late flowering Male crossed with a healthy desired female?
And yeah, breeding and seed making are different. I think I throw around the term "breeding" to loosely. Breeding takes years. Making a batch of seeds for yerself takes once. LOL
but back to topic. I still think the mis-conception that people making there own seeds is producing schwagg seeds is false.
Its all in the slesction process. IMHO.

 

[Hick]

I agree, to a point mutt. "Selection" is imparative, but selection from "diversity" is also important.
I agree that early flowering males are 'less' desirable candidates for parentage, in most cases. And I absolutely dis-agree with the statement that "seed makers" are producing schwagg or schwagg seeds, "IF" the pollination was made with a purpose and NOT hermie related.
Even an open pollination of plants will produce a quality hybrids in most cases. It is when you get into a few generations of inbreeding that the health and vigor can begin to deteriate due to "inbreeding depression".
When/if this occurs, it can often be re-instilled with an outcross to another P1 or F1 hybrid.

 

[astra007]

the whole problem arises with north american "breeders" that dont take the time to stablize a hybrid IMHO. d.j. shorts and breeder steve as well as simon from serious have worked their strains for over 10 years, while numerous n. american breeders like dan k., jordon or res dog have created unstable hybrids in their race to market the wonder bean. then these strains are cross bred with god knows what.

i have taken an old school blueberry female and "bred" it with a male land based original for over 5 years. for 3 seasons it has proven to have only 1 pheno consistantly. we have bred it back as you say; always using the same genetic materials. so what are we? hhhmmmm. our b/b is mainly SATIVA like the original b/b not the new b/b bred for the indoor market that is 80% indica. and it was crossed originally with another sativa but a heavy producer. we were told that we have created an outdoor breeder strain that is a F1 stable by a geneticist and botanist. but who knows as she is canadian? eh? oh ya hick, you dont need a lab or a thousand plants; just hard work and time.

 

[Hick]

P.S.....A Breeding and Propogation" section is being formulated by MarP as we speak...

 

[astra007]

oh and i do make seeds too. im not pissed off or anything; just 1 of a team that has spent alot of time and resources in developing an unique strain. so i guess im a little of both. a "breeder" and a "seed maker" hehehe

 

[Hick]

OK astra, I can agree wholeheartedly with your NA breeders analogy. BUT what I see you have done is 'further' propogate the BB by selectively xing "your" preferred phenos to produce a BB pheno that you like. You haven't created a "new strain". And I agree wholeheartedly that much of the diversity has been eliminated (especially with the NA "breeders") by selecting toward early flowering and short plants. Which are great for an indoor friendly environment, but eliminates the sat. side of the chacteristics, which also depletes diversity.
I never said "breeding" couldn't be achieved with smaller facilities, but the oppurtunity to discover and capture those "exceptional" pheno's/chacterisitics ARE greatly reduced. "Breeders" call us "closet hacks".

 

[Mutt]

I never said "breeding" couldn't be achieved with smaller facilities, but the oppurtunity to discover and capture those "exceptional" pheno's/chacterisitics ARE greatly reduced.

I notice a lot of articles and posting on certain seedbank forums. That top breeders make routine visits to morrocco and Africa and well all over the place. Collecting, studying, and colaborating trying to find charecteristics from any variety they can get there hands on. Then working with those choices to find the "holy grail".
I read an article by DJ Short. He stated his "dream" place to breed would be a stadium with those super 4K MH all over the place. To allow each plant to show its self without any limiting factors such as confined space and things of that nature. I'll see if I can find that link though..was interesting regarding Sativas mainly. I'll do a quick browse around my link library.

Edit: here it is. How to bring out the Sativa and breed the ultimate buds

Also, you said something about hybrids and there phenotype varying. I don't know... some hybrids and how they grow are utterly amazing. Yes it is a PITA when I order seeds and the pheno is all over the place. I feel "jipped" but when getting a hybrid f3 or something and seein it grow compared to the others is just fun. Every now and then I like to mix things up. Not grow the same old same old. IMHO

 

[seattle420]

You haven't created a "new strain".

 

[Mutt]

You haven't created a "new strain".

HA, I freakin wish. LOL
At about 1 buck a pop per seed, one plant would make me retire.

But I gotta say it. How many times have people been ripped off around here. I mean sub-standard seeds, or F2's and being told they were F1's from so-called "respectable" seed banks. Or worse yet no seeds at all. To me those its a crap shoot no matter what you do. but you do get a feel for who you can trust somewhat..but then you gotta deal with confiscation. 100 bucks worth of seeds gettin nabbed, or hermie, or have traits all over the place is part of the game I guess. and when they are "authentic" they are a freakin fortune. I like variety, but payin the prices I been seein. Good gawd.

 

[astra007]

mutt, i agree with ya. and hick, i agree that in the fine sense of the word - no we are not PROFESSIONAL breeders. all mj started from land based originals; correct? theres about 1000 produced by mother nature. where did the other 9,000 plus come from? ours has b/b, ultimate thai, white russian, a n.a. skunk, afghani, kush and a south america strain in the make up. all bred to create a blueberry flavored, heavy outdoor yeilder, mold resistant, high THC hybrid that grows well in higher altitudes with minimum care. a 85% sativa dom.
i forget that im speakin to experts sometimes with a long time experience.

 

[seattle420]

I wouldn't want to get moderated out of this web page.

all I said was my opinion.

forgive my freedom of speech.

I have been growing for ten years, and never saw any need for "breeding"

I just grow nice well chosen mother plants and clone them, and regenerate them as well.

I don't care if my writing bores you. or anyone else.


if you don't like it, just ignore me.
I hate that!

 

[Mutt]

This turned into a debate. No worries here. Thought there was at first..but hey its opinion, no flaming.
Debate away IMHO.