Is there a limit on cloning, generation decay?

[freerein]

Greetingz,

I was wondering if there is a decay point on clones after a certain generation. It seems that my clones are loosing quality over time and the buds are not as large. I am on my 12th generation with several unkown varieties. The 5th-8th generation seems to be the best.

I am thinking about buying some seeds and appreciate suggestions for someone who suffers from chronic pain. I am legal in WA state with approval from my doctor and been growing for a few years. I want to grow 3-5 strains one for daytime so I can stay more alert and a night time strain to help me sleep. As a connoisseur I would like some flavorful exotics just to enhance the enjoyment.

Anyway I grow indoor, use the best soil mix, Blue Moon supplements for growth and blooming cycle. More later....

Thanks in advance.

 

[dirtyolsouth]

HI,

imho there's no limit at all. I've heard the phrase 'genetic drift' bantered around on this discussion but I've never noticed any reduction in potency over time. I've cloned and cloned clones and then cloned those clones for more clones to clone clones from. Sorry... I've never noticed any drift and I've had some strains going as long as 7-8 years at a time before I had to shut down a grow and subsequently lost those phenos.

Happy Cloning!

 

[dr pyro]

i know nothing about this but i think i read somewhere like 20 -25 generation then loss of potentcy.like i said i thought i read that i cant remember where though

 

[Hick]

I've heard the phrase 'genetic drift' bantered around on this discussion

It is documented somewhere. I've seen/read it. AND... have seen it in my own garden. But, I also think that strain, environment, methods, ect. probably play a part in degredation after 'several' generations of cloning.
By that I mean by taking cuttings from your donor at an inopportune time, possibly not in perfect health. Could, IMO, alter the next generations health and vigor.
We all know that some strains are more resistant to insects, pests, ect. and some strains are more finicky about nutrients, conditions, ect. It only stands to reason that some would be more or less resistant to "genetic drift" or dgredation over time.

 

[StoneyBud]

The changes that take place in a growing clone that are due to environmental alterations make it virtually impossible to have a mature plant that is genetically identical to the plant which hosted it.

At a molecular level, the clone will react to changes as minute as one in a trillion parts. When alterations are caused to the growing clone in response to those changes, the plant is no longer the genetic duplicate it was when cut from the host.

The changes in it's DNA will of course be very, very tiny and perhaps only encompass one trillionth of it's total strand, but the change would be there.

These changes may be more radical if the environment or treatment of the plant is more sudden or direct. If the ambient temperatures were dropped 10 degrees over the life of the clone, that alone may cause enough micro alterations in the plants biological makeup to create a major shift in it's characteristics.

The degrees of shift possible are endless in scope. There is no common factor when discussing a micro event that happens at the level of molecular variations due to alternate conditions.

The base answer to the question; "Does a clone of a plant change over time" is yes. It has to. At a molecular level, there is simply no way to keep a clone in *exactly* the same micro environment as the host it was taken from. Any changes in that environment will result in fractions of alterations in the clones genetic makeup.

The degree and timing of those alterations would vary in scale, dependant on the degree and timing of the changes.

Can it be as sudden as the very next generation? Sure. How radical? Who knows?

Mathematics of the process, when expanded to a timeline will show an increasing alteration over large amounts of time. This only makes sense.

If minute changes happen in weeks, then in months, those changes would have to be accumulative.

If you take a clone of a plant, take it to another room only a short distance from the first room, the variations in the ambient environment would create almost instant alterations in that clones genetic makeup. Those changes would be so tiny that it may take many, many generations for them to accumulate into a noticeable difference in the plant, but none the less, the changes are there at a micro level.

Can there be a standard number of generations to create a major shift in genetics? Mathematically, no. The alterations vary in scope. This alone prevents a standard.

This is all known science. Plant biology has discovered these micro changes in almost every plant that has been studied over time.

Tens of millions of clones have been examined under billions of conditions.

The evolution of plant species is dependant on their ability to alter their genetic makeup as a result of their environment.

So, in short, it's impossible to take a cutting from a mature plant that came from generation one, raise it to full maturity and take a cutting from it in turn, without genetic alterations to the next generation of that host plant. This is magnified in the clone from a clone from a clone process.

Some major changes take millions of years. Others take as little as a few generations, based on the scope of changes in the conditions.