Grow by Candle Light (Monster Budzzzz!!!)

[MootPointBlank]

You know if I put "LED vs. Fluoro" nobody would have viewed the thread. But, seriously, I've had to make some adjustments to my setup and I need to choose what lighting to use for my veg chamber. I've read plenty of grow journals and endless commentary on fluoro vs. LED, but they don't really address what I have in mind.
I have a 400W MH in a 2'x2'x5' box and it just can't be cooled well enough. The MH is going to get moved out with my flowering setup (400W HPS) and I'll flower under 800W of both .
What I'm thinking of doing is lining the four walls of the box with lights (either LED or Fluoro). Since it's only for veg I'm hoping that no vertical light source to stretch toward will encourage shorter internodal spacing and a bushier, horizontal shape. I understand that one of the main gripes about using LED is that it has poor penetration through the top laver of the canopy. If the lights are coming from all sides, won't that alleviate the issue? Fluoros are only slightly warmer than LED's but have a substanstially shorter lifespan and appear to cost more. I've been weighing the pros and cons for days now and I can't make up my mind. The fluoros also produce tons of light that isn't used while the LED's produce only light in the usable wavelengths for photosynthesis. I'm really leaning toward LED's but am hesitant to invest when there's so much disagreement on the issue.
I guess what I'm really asking is if you think my plan will work and if not, why?

MPB

 

[SPEARCHUCKER]

I wouldnt say CFLs produce TONS of light that isnt used.
The 2700s produce almost 90% useful red Ive read.
Its just those much needed blues when young that they kind of lack at in even the 6500 colored bulbs.
So why not mix them. Get blue leds, and a couple 2700 cfls. Should do a great job.
CFLs dont have that bad of a lifespan. 3000+ hours.

Seen them selling highpowered LED blue/white package thats 5w per led for like 150. Might actually be the only thing needed to veg by itself. Since it does have the whites. Sure it would cut down on heat drastically.
hxxp://cgi.ebay.com/BEST-INDOOR-GARDEN-HYDROPONIC-LED-GROW-LIGHT-BEATS-UFO_W0QQitemZ230339905713QQihZ013QQcategoryZ42225QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
(replace xx with tt.)

 

[The Hemp Goddess]

You are operating under several misconceptions. Decent LEDs (don't buy cheap ones) cost 3-4 times as much as fluoros. Fluoros also put out quite a bit more heat than LEDs. If you are using the correct spectrum, you are not wasting that much light. Plants will "stretch" toward the light, no matter where you hang it.

How about T5s? If this were my little veg space, I would be putting 4 2' 54W T5 tubes in there (above the plants).

 

[SPEARCHUCKER]

I have a 2x2 space too THG. When they measure for those 2' bulbs. Is it the bracket thats 2' and the bulbs fit in them, or is it the bulb themselves that is 2 foot making the brackets 2'4"-2'6"?
Cause Id get those T5s myself if it would fit.

 

[MootPointBlank]

hxxp://www.specialty-lights.com/new-wave-t5.html

Were you considering something along these lines? The 54W are the 4' tubes, but it looks like I can get two, four and eight bulb fixtures in the 2' size at 6500k. I noticed the other day that Homme de Po' has 300W cfl's, but the color temp was really warm and didn't seem appropriate for veg. It seems like I can spend $300 and get two of those LED strips that Spearchucker mentioned and have them for ~40khrs (<5yrs) or get an eight bulb fixture for the same price and spend $350/yr (8bulbs x $15 x [8800hrs/yr]/[3000hrs/bulb]) changing bulbs, unless I'm mistaken. The only tradeoff then would be the difference in performance which I cannot attest to because the LED's don't distinguish their lumen output.

MPB

 

[MootPointBlank]

The eBay seller reported 1350 lumens/fixture on the 5W/LED, 5LED/Fixture fixture. Wha da ya think? MPB

 

[The Hemp Goddess]

hxxp://www.specialty-lights.com/new-wave-t5.html

Were you considering something along these lines? The 54W are the 4' tubes, but it looks like I can get two, four and eight bulb fixtures in the 2' size at 6500k. I noticed the other day that Homme de Po' has 300W cfl's, but the color temp was really warm and didn't seem appropriate for veg. It seems like I can spend $300 and get two of those LED strips that Spearchucker mentioned and have them for ~40khrs (<5yrs) or get an eight bulb fixture for the same price and spend $350/yr (8bulbs x $15 x [8800hrs/yr]/[3000hrs/bulb]) changing bulbs, unless I'm mistaken. The only tradeoff then would be the difference in performance which I cannot attest to because the LED's don't distinguish their lumen output.

MPB

No, 2 of these. These are 2' 54W 5000 lumen bulbs (actually the fixture is 2'--the bulbs are slightly shorter ).

hXXp://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=51907

Check Cowboy Budsky's T5 grow against some of the LED grows before you decide what to but to flower with (if you are not going HPS). IMO, there is quite a trade off in yield.

 

[MootPointBlank]

No, 2 of these. These are 2' 54W 5000 lumen bulbs (actually the fixture is 2'--the bulbs are slightly shorter ).

hXXp://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=51907

Check Cowboy Budsky's T5 grow against some of the LED grows before you decide what to but to flower with (if you are not going HPS). IMO, there is quite a trade off in yield.

Damn, those things are the cat's ***. That's a waaaaaay better deal. The bulbs aren't even that bad at $7ea for ~20khr. Do you think I really need two?

 

[The Effen Gee]

I have seen much better results over the long term with led's Vs. Cfl's or T5's.

 

[MootPointBlank]

I have seen much better results over the long term with led's Vs. Cfl's or T5's.

Please do elaborate on that point. "...over the long term...", what does that mean with respect to the "results" you have witnessed? I haven't purchased anything yet, but I will need to make a decision soon. As of now, THG has proposed the most feasible solution but I am still open to suggestions if you have evidence to the contrary. I did some reading on Wiki about lumens; they are "a measure of the perceived power of light" by the human eye, which is relative to the wavelength of light in question. This appears to be a relative description that we are using to describe how bright a source of light is, but tend to only confuse each other because the variables of wavelength, distance, environment and individual eye sensitivity are neither stated nor held constant. If I've lost you, what I'm saying is that "Jack, from the Outback, holds his 10000 Lumen LED fixture with a particular spectral frequency output, in a completely dark room, 1' from his eyes and exclaims, "Crikey, that's bright!" and Jill, from Brazil, stands 4' from her 10000 Lumen T5 fixture with a particular spectral frequency, in a room with the ceiling light on and coos, "Aye, papi, so much light. Certainly much brighter than Jack's." Neither will ever know the truth until they start discussing things in terms of radiant emittance, the measure of the power of light emitted at the surface of a source in units of watts/square meter. This measure can be further reduced to watts by multiplying by the surface area in square meters of the source (bulb). What we effectively would be discussing is the total power of all frequencies of light emitted from a particular source in REwatts. The only consideration left would be to mention the color temperature (concentration of a range of frequencies of light) as we usually do in Kelvin. The watts that we currently use to discuss the ratings of bulbs and fixtures is in terms of electrical power consumed and is an inaccurate method for comparing light output, especially when comparing entirely different technologies. A 5W LED is much different than a 5W CFL. I don't know if or how we could get this information from manufacturers, but the lumens that they have been feeding us with for so long smack of a marketing tool for manipulating the technologically unsavvy. But that's just my take. MPB