Hermaphrodism

[Pot Belly]

Hermaphrodism. Caused by genetic or environmental? I can't quite get the picture in my head on how this hermi thing works.

I have read post after post many times that environmental things like irregular light cycles, too hot or too cold at the wrong time, too much pruning or LST manipulation, etc. will cause your plant to term hermi on you. Is this fact, or hearsay?

But then I've heard that seeds produced on a hermi plant are all genetically coded to produce herms in later generations. I believe this to be true due to the laws of genetics.

So here is what I don't understand..........

I take a perfectly good plant that doesn't have the 'hermi' trait, and take a clone from it. Then I stress the donor plant to the max with you name it. Will that plant turn hermi? Then if it does, what about the clone? Will it turn hermi if I give it the right conditions, and baby the heck out of it?

So really do all strains carry some sort of a recessed hermi trait? Is this the last line of defense to insure propagation of their kind when the plant feels threatened?

 

[Puffin Afatty]

I think all pot plants have the ability to hermie. if you take clones before stressing the plant, then stress the mother, the clone would not be a hermie. If you take a clone, then stress it, the mother would not be a hermie.

I think the genetic predisposition is passed along in the seeds, not necessarily the clones. I've never noticed clones going hermie, if the mother plant hadnt. Also, I've had plants go hermie due to stress, then in regeneratin, not be a hermie unless the same stress was applied. So I think it follows that a stress hermie could be normal if the stress was avoided.

 

[Hick]

So really do all strains carry some sort of a recessed hermi trait? Is this the last line of defense to insure propagation of their kind when the plant feels threatened?

..you're on target with that statement. .. though, IMHO, not ALL strains and or plants have the ability/propensity to hermi. "I" am of the beliefe that there are "true" females, or female plants that are 100% female, and will not herm under stress or light manipulation, and can only be "reversed" with chemical manipulation.
Those are the only prospects, again, IMHO, that are suitable candidates for femminisation projects.

I take a perfectly good plant that doesn't have the 'hermi' trait, and take a clone from it. Then I stress the donor plant to the max with you name it. Will that plant turn hermi? Then if it does, what about the clone? Will it turn hermi if I give it the right conditions, and baby the heck out of it?

"NO"... not likely anyway. I do believe, that the greater majority of todays hybrid strains are susceptible to hermophradism when over stressed and/or light manipulation. The cuttings/clones will have the exact same propensity as the donor/mother.
BUT... with the a plant that herm's under stress, when that hermi' pollen is used to propegate seeds from another plant holding the recessive trait to hermi, the odds are more likely that that recessive trait will exhibit itself more often and more prominantly in the following generations.

 

[Pot Belly]

I think all pot plants have the ability to hermie. if you take clones before stressing the plant, then stress the mother, the clone would not be a hermie. If you take a clone, then stress it, the mother would not be a hermie.

I've had plants go hermie due to stress, then in regeneratin, not be a hermie unless the same stress was applied. So I think it follows that a stress hermie could be normal if the stress was avoided.

A 'stress hermie'. That's an interesting way to relate.

Thanks for your input on your observations, Puffin. Historical data is the only true way to determine certain patterns.

I do believe, that the greater majority of todays hybrid strains are susceptible to hermophradism when over stressed and/or light manipulation. The cuttings/clones will have the exact same propensity as the donor/mother.
BUT... with the a plant that herm's under stress, when that hermi' pollen is used to propegate seeds from another plant holding the recessive trait to hermi, the odds are more likely that that recessive trait will exhibit itself more often and more prominantly in the following generations.

I am beginning to see some light here.........

So except for the rare 'pure female only' plant, most all MJ plants do have the ability to herm. It's co-dependant on the environment and the genetic code. The plant strength to resist herming and varying environmental conditions will go from one end of the scale to the other based on the plant's genetic code. This combination is so vast, it's really not definable, is it?

It's like someone born with a congenital heart defect. It's waiting to reveal itself under a certain threshold of stress. Everything's fine until the final minutes of the basketball game and he exerts that final push and the defect can't hold up anymore, and reveals itself by failing. The player passes out on the floor from heart failure. I have seen this happen many times.

The plants that hermi with mild stress are the ones that do not need to be included in breeding stock. Or any plants that hermi at all for that matter.

Like certain breeds of dogs that are susceptible to hip dysplasia, it is not responsible breeding to knowingly produce offspring from dogs showing that particular trait.

In all experience, what is the most common environmental condition that causes a plant to hermi? Light interruption during the dark cycle?

 

[Puffin Afatty]

I think the most common form of stress is temperature, both hot and cold. I've never interrupted the dark cycle to cause a hermie. I have heard of it.

I think the pot plant is evolving rapidly with all the human intervention, but some strains are more mold resistant, some are more mite resistant, and some are more hermie resistant. Perhaps there will be a day when we have true seedless weed, that is, like the navel orange, no seeds are grown by females, and all plants are females.

this all makes sense to me, some pot naturally grows in high cold places, some grows in low hot places. some grows where it is dry some where it is humid.

this is soooo much fun, I sometimes agree it must be illegal. :rofl:

 

[Puffin Afatty]

Like certain breeds of dogs that are susceptible to hip dysplasia, it is not responsible breeding to knowingly produce offspring from dogs showing that particular trait.

I have to agree about the irresponsibility of those producing feminized seeds with the hermie method. Also, I see a annoying trend at re-selling others strains and simply renaming them. I'm all for diversity, but the dilution of the genetics is alarming.:hubba:

it's almost like I am arguing for cannabis racism, eh? :rofl:

 

[umbra]

perhaps one of the closest breeding comparison is with dogs. History shows that all dogs came from one species. That the inbreeding for specific traits really didn't devlop until 19th century. now look at all the different varieties. and if you look closer at individual breeds, many of developed hip problems, or breathing problems, or blindness, ect. well i think that this can also be said of mj. 30 years ago there weren't many indoor strains. they were all outdoor strains. thru manipulation of certain desired traits new breeds have been developed and stabilized, all kinds of hybirds are developed all the time. who is to know what all of these effects are a large scale over time. moreover, i believe whether enviromentally induced or chemically induced it is a result of a particular plant hormone, just like flowering. In human, hormonal manipulation can cause liver damage, cardiovascualr damage, cancer, male traits, female traits. In can always show increased muscle size and strength, increased aggression, anti aging effects,ect.

these traits never really seemed to much of a problem with well established landrace varieties. Without a doubt, mj primary focus is to reproduce and it will do what evr it can to do so, including changing it's sex.

 

[Hick]

I think the most common form of stress is temperature, both hot and cold. I've never interrupted the dark cycle to cause a hermie. I have heard of it.

..but I've never had a plant hermie over temperature flucuation. Irregular light cycles or interruption of the dark cycle, would be ny guess, as to the "most common" form of stress induced hermophradism in pot plants.

.

 

[jb247]

First off, thank you all for your input on this subject. I don't have the experience necessary to make comments on this, but I find the whole idea intreging. It would be an interesting experiment, trying to find out exactly what causes hermi's, but I simply don't have the room to do such experimentation...

Thanks for a very interesting discussion...

Peace...j.b.

 

[Pot Belly]

I'm not going to let this hermi thing go yet......:

What has experience shown on tying plants down, or LST, and that triggering a plant to throw out a nanner?

 

[Hick]

IMO.. it is dependant on the propensity of the particular plant/pheno. BUT.. "I" have never had an issue with 'conscientousley well bred' plants. That is.. strains that have been selectively bred "away" from the hermie tendency.
Not to say that you won't hace a recessive trait, exhibit itself from time to time.

 

[Mutt]

..you're on target with that statement. .. though, IMHO, not ALL strains and or plants have the ability/propensity to hermi. "I" am of the beliefe that there are "true" females, or female plants that are 100% female, and will not herm under stress or light manipulation, and can only be "reversed" with chemical manipulation.
Those are the only prospects, again, IMHO, that are suitable candidates for femminisation projects.

hmmm... Interesting outlook right there.
In nature, Hermie was mainly a survival trigger. IMO. I would almost think that every one would have that gene no matter how recessive. Had to start somewhere.
WOW this brings on a whole new theory. Twisting my head up. Well Natural Catastrophie such as Volcano Ash blocking out the sun. Or Some natural Light inceident would cause light manipulation in nature. Or one year too many females and not enough females..who knows.... So no telling where the "adaptive" trait to herm. came from.
If there was a 100% true female...I think it would been lost loong ago...unless you find some rare patch of landrace in the middle of nowhere untouched by man....3000 miles past BFE
I'm gonna think on this one Hick...good reply dude. Off to google.

On the LST pruning and topping...each strain will have its level of stress it can handle...just like phenos that are nutrient hungry and others that are hyper sensitive. I just follow the common rule...no more than 1/3 the plants mass...your pretty much safe. IMHO

 

[Pot Belly]

OK, great input so far. It's known that some plants will hermi with a lower tolerance (to change), or just hermi anyway during flower. It's also well understood that hermis at any rate would not be used as breeding stock. So that would usually be the end of it. But I have to know more, so here's a scenerio to ponder..........

Take two seeds from the same non-hermi plant and bud. One seed matures into a beautiful female flowering plant with no male flowers at all. The other one exhibits the hermi trait during the first few weeks of flower. Would this hermi plant condition be considered as a 'phenotype'? Isn't that what a phenotype is? A particular trait on a particular plant that is different on the same species or strain?

 

[Mutt]

OK, great input so far. It's known that some plants will hermi with a lower tolerance (to change), or just hermi anyway during flower. It's also well understood that hermis at any rate would not be used as breeding stock. So that would usually be the end of it. But I have to know more, so here's a scenerio to ponder..........

Take two seeds from the same non-hermi plant and bud. One seed matures into a beautiful female flowering plant with no male flowers at all. The other one exhibits the hermi trait during the first few weeks of flower. Would this hermi plant condition be considered as a 'phenotype'? Isn't that what a phenotype is? A particular trait on a particular plant that is different on the same species or strain?

It would depedns on how far back the recessive trait goes. The one pheno may have more of a tendancy to show hermaphrodism. (poor sp..sorta forked here). Just becuase that one pheno repressed that trait doesn't mean it would not show up....why many back cross. To find the recessive trait. As soon as it pops most breeders chuck the pheno or let public know.

Edit:
Now just realized this might somewhat support Hicks beleif now...been thinkin on this one. Equitorial strains have genotype hermaphrodite traits..but this would not hold true to every strain...but because of the massive hybrid crossing that has occurred over the who knows how much time...to find a 100% female would be difficult. But the chance of 100% fem and 100%m is there. Good call Hick..I'm liking this debate.

 

[Hick]

Take two seeds from the same non-hermi plant and bud. One seed matures into a beautiful female flowering plant with no male flowers at all. The other one exhibits the hermi trait during the first few weeks of flower. Would this hermi plant condition be considered as a 'phenotype'? Isn't that what a phenotype is? A particular trait on a particular plant that is different on the same species or strain?

If we're only talking about "2" seeds, and one hermi'd, "I" would consider that particular cross to be highly susceptable to hermophradism. (50%). That says to me, that at least one of the parents has an exceptionally high propensity to hermi. And unless I was desperate to keep those genetics preserved for a pretty good reason, wouldn't consider either, a "good" breeding candidate. NOW, grow out 100, or a thousand seeds, and only "one" exhibits hermophradism, and you're in business.
The "Breeders", should "IMHO, typically have the room/facility to accomodate hundreds of both male and female plants to choose the "best" phenotypes, to mate with the best pheno's.
"A cross between two hybrids will produce a wide range of phenotypes, especially if the hybrid grandparents are widely unrelated. Segregating generations are where the breeder goes to work, sorting through hundreds of plants to find the ones that meet the goal of the program. Most seeds on the market today are segregating generations."
Medels P square... thats a great link for getting a basic understanding of genetics, but don't stop there, follow some of the links provided there.

 

[Mutt]

Yep Hick...think your beleif of 100% true fems is right on base.
See chart.

 

[Pot Belly]

Punnett squares, dominant, recessive alleles, homozygous, heterozygous genes, etc......:hairpull: I should have known! :doh:

Need hundreds of plants, males and females, to select from and eliminate all the undesirable traits. Would require years of dedicated work and research to stabilize desirable traits, and eleiminate undesirable ones. I see the possibilities and the fun! Too bad this plant is not allowed to grow freely.

Getting back to our little hermi scenerio..............

Has anyone done any playing around with a known plant that tends to hermi, cloned test batches, and tried to determine what actually triggers the hermi spring from these rooted clones?

Again - we know a hermi plant is 'junk'. I just want to establish in real life what triggers her to reveal male gender.

 

[Hick]

I've never messed w/ them PB. I had a horrific experience with hermi's "one" time, and I'm ruined..

 

[umbra]

Punnett squares, dominant, recessive alleles, homozygous, heterozygous genes, etc......:hairpull: I should have known! :doh:

Need hundreds of plants, males and females, to select from and eliminate all the undesirable traits. Would require years of dedicated work and research to stabilize desirable traits, and eleiminate undesirable ones. I see the possibilities and the fun! Too bad this plant is not allowed to grow freely.

Getting back to our little hermi scenerio..............

Has anyone done any playing around with a known plant that tends to hermi, cloned test batches, and tried to determine what actually triggers the hermi spring from these rooted clones?

Again - we know a hermi plant is 'junk'. I just want to establish in real life what triggers her to reveal male gender.

perhaps I cheated but i used gibberillic acid. Hermi almost everytime

 

[Pot Belly]

Thanks for all the input everyone.

Well, my interest in this subject sparked when a female plant of mine threw out a few male flowers. I was panicing earlier, but with time, have found these male flowers only came out on a few branches, and at at a certain node count from the ends, and have since stopped producing males flowers into the flower. I picked off about 15 flowers, BTW.

It's like the plant felt a certain stress in its life, and threw out a self defense trick. Then when everything settles out, and stabilizes, the plant gets happy again and quits making male flowers. I'm pretty sure the trigger is related to light. Now there are no more male flowers growing. This is fascinating!

So anyway, I will be trying different scenerios with rooted cuttings off this plant, and see if I can't define what causes a certain plant to herm.

Is it related to light? Excessive trimming, topping, etc...

I'll be adding to this thread as this thing progresses.