Hermaphrodism

[Puffin Afatty]

I had stressed hermies. heater failed and grow got very cold one time, WW plants hermied. Another time an air conditioner failed, grow was over 100* and same WW plants hermied. Possible these plants had a propensity to hermie, but they didnt go hermie in any of 8 other generations that didnt have a heating/cooling issue. I grew out some of the hermied seeds, the plants were sprayed with reverse in weeks 1,2 and 3, so I got no seeds in the harvest.

I grew out a couple seeds without using reverse and saw a couple male flowers but pinched em off as soon as they formed, but before they opened. Had almost no seeds on those, and the few I found were undeveloped.

I then tooks some clones of the hermied plants and the clones were normal, no seeds for 3 generations.

I then took the clones and subjected them to a very hot room for 3 days and they hermied too when flowered. I sprayed em with reverse and got no seeds.

then I just quit messing with hermies altogether. seems they were not much of an issue anymore since reverse took care of the seeds.

good luck!!!

 

[Pot Belly]

Hey Puffin - interesting info there! I'm glad I didn't toss this one. I was disappointed at first, now it's a chance to learn something about this plant.

Most would toss a hermi or one that would have the tendancy to do so. I want to play mad scientist for a bit. If I can define the trigger, eliminate it, and keep this plant a flowering female, she (it) will suit my needs good enough. I'll keep this clone line for future cuttings. If it keeps throwing out male flowers, obviously it will end up in the hashpile.

This plant will not be any breeding stock, and any seeds produced will get microwaved and tossed.

 

[Pot Belly]

OK - Mad scientist Pot Belly here with an interesting update:

The one in flower that showed some staminate (male) flowers hasn't grown any more males as of yet. I made a thorough search, and pulled every male off. Like I said before, there were only a few. She's loading with pistils.

A clone off her that rooted, and went into flower showed a few male flowers exactly at the same time in flower, and the same locations. Also about the same ratio to plant size. Like I did before, I let the male flowers get bigger, and pulled them off before they opened up. It's been two weeks, and I don't see any more male flowers yet on the clone. She is showing exact patterns as mom.

There is a problem with this test though: the dark cycle was interrupted several times for me to do some work on the box:hairpull: ........So we still may be induced to staminate by interuption of light cycle. One test at a time, right?

This clone was not cut or pruned before flower. Sooooo..... The test does show that pruning this plant while vegging was most likely NOT the cause (or stress) to reveal staminate flowers.:aok:

 

[THCPezDispenser]

Can I get one clarification here about the seeds from hermies. If a plant, which under optimial conditions would not hermie, but due to environment does hermie and produces self-pollenated seeds, what type of plants will these seeds produce? From my basic understanding of genetics, this stress-induced situation shouldn't rewrite the genetic code of the mother and pass this modified genetic code to it's offspring, would it? The resulting genetics should be similar to the mother, which would be a plant that does not hermie under optimal conditions? But this doesn't seem to be what I have read, which is that hermie plants produce hermie seeds? Just seems to me like the analogy is if I have fair skin, I have a tendency to sunburn. If I do get sunburned, obviously my children shouldn't be born with a sunburn?

 

[Pot Belly]

Just seems to me like the analogy is if I have fair skin, I have a tendency to sunburn. If I do get sunburned, obviously my children shouldn't be born with a sunburn?

Yes, but your children would have the genetic code to burn when under the sun - exactly like you do. Unless you or your wife has some dark skinned blood to pass on to your offspring. There's always a chance.

You are most likely correct in your thought THCPez. My hermi plants that I have been playing with have not shown any more male flowers since they first appeared in the first week and 1/2 of flower. And they are getting optimal conditions ATM.

 

[Hick]

Hermies procreate hermies..
useing hermie induced/pollinated seeds, is essentially "selectively" breeding for that trait.

Just seems to me like the analogy is if I have fair skin, I have a tendency to sunburn. If I do get sunburned, obviously my children shouldn't be born with a sunburn?

... an analogy TOTALLY out of context.
..closer, would be, "If you had a child with your also "fair skinned" sister.".. the offspring would contain a high propensity/susceptibility to sunburm...among other mutations

 

[THCPezDispenser]

Hermies procreate hermies..
useing hermie induced/pollinated seeds, is essentially "selectively" breeding for that trait.

Ok, so just so I understand this in context of my example (not my analogy):

1) I have a beautiful female. I treat her with optimal conditions, she flowers magnificently, and I use gibberic acid to make a male flower, self pollenate the plant and collect seeds.

2) Reverse back in time. Same exact female, but because of a string of winter storms and power outages, the flowering light cycles screw up and it turns hermie. It self-seeds.

This is my specific question - Are the seeds collected in example 1 and 2 the same genetic makeup, or has the fact that in situation #2 the plant hermied changed the genetic information passed to the seeds?

... an analogy TOTALLY out of context.
..closer, would be, "If you had a child with your also "fair skinned" sister.".. the offspring would contain a high propensity/susceptibility to sunburm...among other mutations

Fair enough, but if that kid stays out of the sun, they still won't burn I guess is my point. Your point is that if they do hit the sun, they'll probably get a worse burn than I ever would.

Tendency to hermie with mangled light schedule = fair skin
Actually turning into a hermie because of lighting irregularities = sunburn

Of course, your version of the analogy also depends on how marijuana handles self pollenation. Some plants do it quite successfully to the point of essentially creating clone seeds, on the other extreme plants such as apple trees are not even capable of self pollenation even though they have male and female flowers.

 

[THCPezDispenser]

Something I found that this thread readers may find interesting:

100% Female Seeds

As some of you may know I've been a regular in the chat room for a while and I spend a large amount of time in there. I have had the extreme pleasure of speaking to Mr. XX over the last few nights for many hours and have gotten to know him quite well via email and the chat. He has confided in me and in a few others about his process for coming up with 100 percent female seeds.

Mr. XX is a very nice guy, funny too and it's always a pleasure to speak with him. He doesn't speak English too well, but his wit comes through the rough language and he's a riot. He's a pure lover of cannabis and feels that everyone should share and share alike. He simply wants to share his knowledge with the cannabis community, and because he's spent 15 years researching this, I spoke about it with him in depth.

He has stressed literally hundreds of plants with irregular photoperiods. What he does is put the lights on 12/12 for 10 days. Then he turns the lights on 24 hours, then 12/12 again for a few days, then back to 24 hours for a day, then 12/12 again for a few weeks. If he does this and no hermaphrodites come up, he has found a 100% XX female that can't turn hermaphrodite naturally. He claims that your chances of finding a 100% XX female is vastly increased when using Indica genetics. He also informed me that the more Afghani or Nepalese genetics the plant has, the better the chances of finding a natural XX female. In his own words: "Where did nature give weed a home originally?" I tried to get him to narrow it down to a ratio, but he never specified just how many plants per are XX females. He claims there are plenty of XX females for everybody, and that's all he will say on the subject. It takes a lot of time and a lot of plants to find that one female.
He then uses gibberellic acid, mixing 30 centiliters of water with 0.02 grams of gibberellic acid and 2 drops of natruim hydroxide to liquefy the gibberellic. Then applies as normal and creates the male flowers. He has gotten down to the 4th generation without loss of vigor, and with no genetic deficiencies and hermaphrodites. He claims that the plants are exact genetic clones of one another, complete sisters. Basically it's cloned from seed instead of from normal cloning methods.

Mr. XX also says that it's easy for the home grower to find an XX female. It's a very time-consuming process but a straightforward one. He advises home growers to confine themselves to a single strain. Mr. XX used a Skunktfl x Haze x Hawaiian Indica. He says to separate those plants from your main grow and stress them severely. Do this repeatedly with every new crop of seeds you get of that strain until you find the XX female. While this is time consuming it is by no means impossible.

 

[Puffin Afatty]

very, very interesting. I had read of this technique before.

to sum it up, the XX female wont hermie at all. we may have had xx females and just never knew it.

Very cool info. Thanks again THCPezDispenser!!

 

[Hick]

If he does this and no hermaphrodites come up, he has found a 100% XX female that can't turn hermaphrodite naturally.

That is the "exact" procedure that I was taught was the only correct procedure for making femminised seeds.
"Find a TRUE female, that won't hermie under stress, chemically reverse her for staminate flowers, use THAT pollen to fertilize another clone of the "true" fem'."
Thak you Pez.
It tends confirms my suspicion, that all of this "light stressed" hermie pollinations, ARE onlly serving to further pollute the gene pool with the hermophradite genetics.

 

[trillions of atoms]

you can mist them everyday and that kills any viable pollen.....and its as cheep as a mister bottle and free from there on. im sure picking branches off after misting will help to but id thought id try and help n throw that in as an idea for ppl on a budget. goodluck!

 

[THCPezDispenser]

"Find a TRUE female, that won't hermie under stress, chemically reverse her for staminate flowers, use THAT pollen to fertilize another clone of the "true" fem'."

So, who sells REAL feminized seeds? If we agree to the logic of the feminization process above, a bottle of gibberellic acid and a pack of real feminized seeds should be the only thing you would need to be able to grow females from seeds the rest of your life. The heavy lifting of finding a true female would already be done for us with true feminized seeds, we just grow one of these females and repeat the process, making your own feminized seeds.

Anybody out there have any practical experience with gibberellic acid, is it difficult to use? Is it expensive?

 

[Pot Belly]

What interesting info THCPez. I fully understand what is happening with the evolution of this plant. And it is evolving as we speak, which makes it more important to weed out the weed, and maintain good breeding practices by promoting genetics that don't tend to hermaphrodite.

Maybe we don't need to be so gentle with them and afraid they'll herm. Maybe we're afraid of the truth that we've got a crappy hermi pheno!

Seriously though, for the preservation of the species, responsible practices should be of utmost concern when breeding. Female plants should be tested for true xx by stressing. (If this article is indeed to be factual information)This true female should be used for breeding, IMO. Any plants showing staminate flowers need to be not used for making seeds at all.

Now for the million dollar question: Is there a true male? One that wouldn't herm and throw out pistillate flowers when under the same flowering stress?

If so, would the seeds from these two true sex parents not have the propensity to herm?

 

[Hick]

What interesting info THCPez. I fully understand what is happening with the evolution of this plant. And it is evolving as we speak, which makes it more important to weed out the weed, and maintain good breeding practices by promoting genetics that don't tend to hermaphrodite.

Maybe we don't need to be so gentle with them and afraid they'll herm. Maybe we're afraid of the truth that we've got a crappy hermi pheno!

Seriously though, for the preservation of the species, responsible practices should be of utmost concern when breeding. Female plants should be tested for true xx by stressing. (If this article is indeed to be factual information)This true female should be used for breeding, IMO. Any plants showing staminate flowers need to be not used for making seeds at all.

Now for the million dollar question: Is there a true male? One that wouldn't herm and throw out pistillate flowers when under the same flowering stress?

If so, would the seeds from these two true sex parents not have the propensity to herm?

Man, you grasped that concept, as quickly as anyone I've seen . THANKS!
..there has been a faction around for sometime, that has preached "consiencious" breeding. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with it. The attraction of the $$$$$ is too great.

 

[Mutt]

I was just reading an article at 'nother site. It dealt with males with few pistils. They were saying how this was a good canidate breeding. (Keep in mind extremely knowledgable person said this) I did not agree as they said "its not a hermie" but i totally disagreed (in my own mind) that ANY time a plant shows both sexes is when it is a hermie...just depends on the male chromosome dominance.

 

[Puffin Afatty]

it's a shame that the public gene pool is polluted. some folks are just about the $$, dont care how they get it, and cheat, lie, steal. Being a illegal activity, growers are not protected here. It is the same progression I saw in the 60's and 70's when getting high went mainstream.

$$$$ is the problem, always will be, until it's legal and there is no incentive to go underground the commercial growers will continue to corrupt the weed, it's production and distribution.

punk powder dealers adulterate their products to make $$$, punk smoke dealers kif their weed before selling it, add sticks and stones and extra seeds, all to get a little extra for themselves. ALAS, 'tis the world we have to work with. Good Luck to all of you!!!

 

[Hick]

I was just reading an article at 'nother site. It dealt with males with few pistils. They were saying how this was a good canidate breeding. (Keep in mind extremely knowledgable person said this) I did not agree as they said "its not a hermie" but i totally disagreed (in my own mind) that ANY time a plant shows both sexes is when it is a hermie...just depends on the male chromosome dominance.

...?? It isn't a hermie??... :hitchair:
I gotta' know, "what" is it??

 

[THCPezDispenser]

1) I have a beautiful female. I treat her with optimal conditions, she flowers magnificently, and I use gibberellic acid to make a male flower, self pollenate the plant and collect seeds.

2) Reverse back in time. Same exact female, but because of a string of winter storms and power outages, the flowering light cycles screw up and it turns hermie. It self-seeds.

This is my specific question - Are the seeds collected in example 1 and 2 the same genetic makeup, or has the fact that in situation #2 the plant hermied changed the genetic information passed to the seeds?

Sorry to keep at this, but does anyone have an opinion on this little scenario? I see that the core of the thread is about preserving and improving the genetics of MJ, this question is me trying to understand how this plant works, not to advocate the use of hermies in breeding! I understand that in #1 the plant still has a hermie tendency.

My take is that the seeds produced in scenario 1 and scenario 2 are no different. The fact that it was stressed into showing it's hermie trait will not affect the genetic heritage it passes to the seeds. In other words, both sets of seeds would have the hermie traits, and with the same "intensity".

 

[Pot Belly]

Sorry to keep at this, but does anyone have an opinion on this little scenario? I see that the core of the thread is about preserving and improving the genetics of MJ, this question is me trying to understand how this plant works, not to advocate the use of hermies in breeding! I understand that in #1 the plant still has a hermie tendency.

My take is that the seeds produced in scenario 1 and scenario 2 are no different. The fact that it was stressed into showing it's hermie trait will not affect the genetic heritage it passes to the seeds. In other words, both sets of seeds would have the hermie traits, and with the same "intensity".

Hey Pez - This thread's core started out trying to understand about the nature of hermaphrodism in this plant. It sorta evolved into stressing about responsible breeding. Kinda goes hand in hand - so your right on with the thread. Let's keep nailing this thing down.

Yes, the same plant during both scenerios will produce seeds that carry the hermie trait. If the plant produces staminate (male) flowers at any time during flower, irregardless of amount of light stress, making a male flower artificially with gibberilic acid on the same plant (that can already grow staminate flowers) creates a seed that has the same (hermie) traits.

I think the hang-up or confusion on hermaphrodism is the perspective of the grower. Most seem to think that a plant turns hermie with certain stress. Look at it this way: It's a hermie whether it shows staminate flowers or not, because it's predetermined genetically to grow staminate flowers under the "right" conditions.

Notice that Hick mentioned to use a sister clone of the XX plant to receive the pollen created by the gibberilic acid and not self-seeding the plant. I wonder if the true XX female plant induced to "hermi" would procreate hermi seeds if it self pollenated. That is one for the experienced.

 

[Elephant Man]

Some really good thoughts bouncing around...here's a few more...

I grow sativas from seed soz I need my males, can't offer much help on the feminizing thing. I hassle my plants and have had my share of herms which is more the norm for sativas...as I understand it. Equatorial sativas are the worst but they are the best to smoke and they have taught me alot. I have used light cycles, hot or ph wacked mediums, temps and lack of ventilation, etc. in order to choose best possible mates. I have even seen one herm from a high dose of N really late in flower, but as was mentioned already these were 'mild' herms and only tossed 'nanners' on one axial cola most times. Another interesting thing, and as usual my experience is with pretty much sativas only, is as I understand it, nearly all will herm if let go too long in flowering. This is commonly done in sativas as they may have several 'windows' for harvesting, anyway, something to think about for you potential breeders out there.

I do not use 'herms' for seedmaking but I don't fear them and they smoke just fine. One has to understand (like mutt said) it is an emergency mechanism in our special plant, it is probably the reason mj has survived man's attempts at eradicating it. I have 'respect' for them...err...anyway, I don't get upset over them. Also, IMO, marijuana would prefer to breed naturally (who wouldn't?) soz not every herm is a dead end road, but surely a dusty one. As I understand it the 'hermie trait' can skip a generation, but if it came down to strain preservation (landrace), I could see myself getting dirty. While on the topic of 'good breeding practices' always disclose any possible 'hermie action' before handing out seeds.

Good thread keep it up.