From Lucas himself. (serious growers with patience only)

[NorCalHal]

First off skallie......THANKS! You, in a matter of your last two posts have renewed my faith in "newer" members being intelligent and arguing a point without flaming. Really man, thanks.

Now, lets debate!

So in hydro the plants only take what they need leading to ec drifts constantly therefore leading to either more frequent res changes or what lots of people tend to do just top up and adjust which aint the way.
Who know what elements of what trace minerals from the intitial reservoir filling have been used-this in turn leads to all sorts of lockout over/under fert probs.

The key to that is having a res of sufficent size for the table you are going to flood. I am not a fan of topping off. I am a firm believer that you should just change out your nuits every 7 days,regardless. And the REAL key is to allways use less then what any container says to use. As you said, I have adjusted the "Lucas" method to my liking, but he is all in all pretty acurate and is 90% fail safe as far as just usuing his formula, and thats it.

You still have pest problems in hydro their not just problematic to soil grows.

The only thing I can really think of is fungal gnats, but I think you can get them in soil also, not too sure.

Lastly jbonez do you do ebb and flow if so surely the clay pebbles are nuked out after a grow if so do you bin them or clean them and reuse.
Im not slagging lucas or you jbonez im just offering some insight to both styles.skallie alrite lar

I myself do not use the pebbles at all. Strickly rockwool. I use shreaded rockwool in 2 gal pots, but most folks use 4"-8" cubes and flood and drain the table.

take dutch master superbud from about 5 years ago my mate used this as did many others and his buds went from 2gm buds to 3-4 gms buds.
then onto canna boost although daylight robbery price wise it increases yields maybe not v's cost of the boost but it does work.
onto pk 13/14 again from canna try it then try without it adds to yield.

I am sure that it did help with the yeilds. BUT, I also believe that the same results could be acheived with the same basic GH 3 part nuits alone and just adjusted to what the strain can handle. I have hit the magic "gram/watt" on 1000w lights usuing just that and saw no need for supplements. That convinced me that basic nuits can and will acheive Big yeilds.
Now, don't get me wrong bro, I can tell you have experience and know how to use your nuits, whatever they may be, correctly. My point is that supplements are the doom of MANY new growers, escpecially in hydro.

take cervantes cannabis bible book what an absolute pile of crap

Cheers to that!

 

[JBonez]

that's why that happened...awhile back. thanks JBonez

ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT

Humans dont grow well in bad conditions either, nor could we sustain a healthy lifestyle. Marijuana is no exception

 

[NorCalHal]

Ph/tds drift in a res is a good thing, im not sure why you dont think it is, lol.
The drift allows maximum uptake at various ph's since some minerals arent absorbed unless in a specific ph range.

GREAT point man!

I can't really contribute to the soil convo too much, as it has litterally been 15 years at least since I messed with soil.

 

[JBonez]

Well played norcal, but i will maintain my position that a res can be stable with simple top offs throughout and entire grow. Its math, not speculation. Nutrients are the variable, and therefore can be predictable, while different strains cannot.

The only reason i will not be topping off is do to the fact that i make ro water enough to swap out the res every day if i chose to.

I do want to try it tho.

Lucas calculates that a minimum of a 40 gallon res is needed per 1000w lamp.
He backed this up with math, you cant argue with that, not only that, but most people dont use an adequate res size relative to the plants needs, therefore its no wonder people have res issues, lol, they dont know what they are doing.

Ive been growing for about 7 months, and let me tell you, Knowledge is power in this sport, and the only way to grow properly.

I do not find it to be a coincidence that those with the smallest yields seem to lack the most mental fortitude.

 

[GrowinGreen]

Interesting thread. I just bought the Flora 3 Series which should be here tomorrow and I am going to follow something similar to the Lucas formula- but I am really excited to try my own thing.

I think everything is pretty much strain dependent myself, and I agree that plants will only obtain as much nutrients as the environment allows when looking at temperature, humidity, and lighting.

Each plant has its own genetics (just like you and me) which controls how healthy it will be, how tall or short it will be, what disease it will be immune or not immune to, whether it will have big leaves or little leaves, how it will react to humidity, how many budsites it has, how much bud it produces, etc.

Hell my 50 day old AI can still only handle 6 mL FloraNova grow/gallon and she is very healthy! I can't give her anymore- she just won't accept it. My WW was taking 12+ mL at this same time.

So I believe it all lies within the genetics of each plant and our ability to "tweak the registry" to find the optimum settings (for you computer nerds).

 

[Budders Keeper]

ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT

Humans dont grow well in bad conditions either, nor could we sustain a healthy lifestyle. Marijuana is no exception

Yup, it was a couple years back. It's under control now:aok: ...
excellent thread, very good reading.

 

[JBonez]

btw, its the little things, like sterilizing EVERYTHING you use to grow with. This means everything.

My grow tent and the room its in are my personal laboratory. You dont have to be as meticulous as me, im super obsessive compulsive, which usually leads to a "over due it" situation for me, but where that gets me down, i make up with diligence and routine.

I dont see how anyone could grow in an environment that wasnt immaculate.

Ive got a couple friends, one of which has grown much longer than myself.

But he seems to be coming to me for advice, and everytime i have to diag his plants and tell him what to do. Now, dont get me wrong, the guy grows decent bud, but his yield sucks, the bud is decent, but not up to my standards.

I guess people will get exactly what they want, after all, you cant expect more than you give, lol.

 

[JBonez]

Yup, it was a couple years back. It's under control now:aok: ...
excellent thread, very good reading.

cool man, thats what i want to hear. I love how far ive come, and i love it when i learn from someone do to problems they have had, and the steps they take to remedy it.

This is great, lets all keep learning through good convo, i just hope the insight gets more in depth.

Id like to study how nutrients affect plants and why plants react the way they did. (duh, i know the basics) But lets talk about how nutrients affecting nutrients that affect the plant. Thats a tricky diag!

This is often the biggest problem for growers, and i would love to be able to identify any def before it gets remotely out of hand.

 

[solarz]

A lot of people mention soil grows...and never mention organics. And i mean real deal organics...non of that hydro organic stuff. I think that is TRULEY the difference. Right now, i'm running the same strain in difference methods. I am running 3 coco buckets using a modified lucas formula (w/o any additives). I'm running 3 using an organic coco setup (similar to MassP's buckets), and another 3 with a soiless organic mix. Now i've NEVER touched the ph/ppm meter for my organic stuff, but i do use it to make sure things are straight with the chemical nutes.

Like i personally said, i don't really think hydro or soil is more difficult than the other, i think it is chemicals are just more difficult than using organics. I just bubble water, add molasses then pour on the plants (using the organics). With using the lucas formula, you have to mix nutes, check ph, modify ph, check ph again, then give to the plants. Like i said, this is just MHO.

solarz

 

[BBFan]

Interesting read guys. Thank you.

JBonez-
I thought you were a soil guy? When did you go hydro?

 

[skallie]

Ok i was making the assumption your growing environment was correct obviously this is the most important thing in growing and until the environment is pretty much spot on you will not get optimum results.

As for my theory it is factual his environment has been dialed in to perfection for about 6 years now with little or no change to nutrients used apart from the additives/boosteres named above.

Cervantes book crap ok i may have gone overboard but if i had it to hand i could dismiss many of his statements.

Quit posting sorry but what gives you the right to question what i state just because you happen to disagree with my comments.

Oh sorry i wasnt aware you had been growing for 7 months.

A ph meter in soil is not necessity when starting out again im making the assumption people just water until the available nutes are all used up in the soil.

Soil will buffer ph if its too high or too low-you clearly do not know much about growing if you beg to differ.

How does your tds meter know the make up of what is in your res when you have topped up... it may well show as the correct tds but the fact it may be 50% too much of one mineral which wasnt used up by the plants prior to the topping up therefore we now move onto the stage of lockout through too much of one or more minerals.


To an extent ph/cf drifts are acceptable but to low to high with either causes lockouts and stalls a plant yes i understand the basics of a plants uptake requirements btw.

Ok ill now leave the thread i dont want to cause any more offence.
skallie

 

[WeedHopper]

We might want to tell the Farmers this new found knowledge, that Fertlizers dont increase yeild on Flowering Plants,,cause they sure spend alot of money on such things for it not to increase yeilds or make bigger fruits and veggies.
Aint saying what yur saying isnt so,,it just dont seem right to me for Nutes to have no effect on yeild. But,,I am no expert,, and have never done a side by side to find out. Gonna really piss me off to know I can have the same yeilds without Nutes after using them for so long with good results.

 

[solarz]

Ok i was making the assumption your growing environment was correct obviously this is the most important thing in growing and until the environment is pretty much spot on you will not get optimum results.

As for my theory it is factual his environment has been dialed in to perfection for about 6 years now with little or no change to nutrients used apart from the additives/boosteres named above.

Cervantes book crap ok i may have gone overboard but if i had it to hand i could dismiss many of his statements.

Quit posting sorry but what gives you the right to question what i state just because you happen to disagree with my comments.

Oh sorry i wasnt aware you had been growing for 7 months.

A ph meter in soil is not necessity when starting out again im making the assumption people just water until the available nutes are all used up in the soil.

Soil will buffer ph if its too high or too low-you clearly do not know much about growing if you beg to differ.

How does your tds meter know the make up of what is in your res when you have topped up... it may well show as the correct tds but the fact it may be 50% too much of one mineral which wasnt used up by the plants prior to the topping up therefore we now move onto the stage of lockout through too much of one or more minerals.


To an extent ph/cf drifts are acceptable but to low to high with either causes lockouts and stalls a plant yes i understand the basics of a plants uptake requirements btw.

Ok ill now leave the thread i dont want to cause any more offence.
skallie

Skallie..you have a misunderstanding of this concept. SOIL itself won't buffer ph...something like dolomite lime IN THE SOIL will buffer ph, therefore, causing you to not need to ph your water. I think you are on the right track with your thinking...but i'm not sure if you know WHY. Uf you really want to dig deeper into this, give me a shout, i'd be more than happy to share my knowledge.

solarz

 

[solarz]

We might want to tell the Farmers this new found knowledge, that Fertlizers dont increase yeild on Flowering Plants,,cause they sure spend alot of money on such things for it not to increase yeilds or make bigger fruits and veggies.
Aint saying what yur saying isnt so,,it just dont seem right to me for Nutes to have no effect on yeild. But,,I am no expert,, and have never done a side by side to find out. Gonna really piss me off to know I can have the same yeilds without Nutes after using them for so long with good results.

I think that genetics play a BIG role in yield...more than ferts. I think that ferts maintain a certain health level in the plants, but don't directly affect it. The way i look at it is with humans. If you give some guy in the gym a lot of protien, additives, etc...yeah he may get "bigger" but ONLY as big as his genetics allows him to get. Now you may have another guy in the same gym, doing the same workout, but without using all the additives, etc...and that guy will be WAY biugger than the guy using the additives. This is possible, b/c his genetic make up allows for this to happen. The only way that he would ever know that was to try to lift weights, and get bigger WITHOUT the additives. Now applythe same concept to the plants. I hope this was somewhat understandable.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that the additives can really only do so much...the rest is left up to genetics and regimine.

solarz

 

[Tater]

To say that additives don't help or increase the yields of your grow is a pretty broad overstatement. True if the environment isn't dialed in the plants won't grow well but if you have a dialed in environment and all the wrong nutrients it won't do jack either. Lucas is not the be all end all of marijuana growing and many people do not follow his methods and obatin spectacular results (myself included). He does lay down a lot of good advice, but as far as what he has to say being hard and true fact, well nothing could be farther from the truth. Its simply one mans opinion, even though it happens to be a very well researched one.

Keeping it simple is great advice and yes good yields can be obtained with the simplest of ferts, hell I know a guy who grows outside with miracle grow and hits his 10LB mark every year. But GREAT yields, require dialed in environment AND dialed in nutrients.

I do agree with NorCalHal on many new growers over doing their nutrients and I do agree that most new to hydro should start simple and work their way into the multitude of additives out there. But to say they don't work or increase yield is ludicrous, there are plenty of grow journals out there that would beg to differ.

 

[solarz]

I understand what you are saying, and alli'm trying to get across is that the ferts, additives alone...you can't hang your hat on that. There is so much more that is required to hit the mark.

But tater...let me ask you this. Have you ever ran your same plants without using any of the additives? If you have, and lets just say that the results were exactly the same, from what you could tell. Would you still drop out the cash to keep buying those additives?

My thing, is that a lot of people put stuff into their nute mixes and have no earthly idea why they are doing it, or exactly what result to get from it. They just throw it in there b/c someone else said so...or someone else does it, and not because that's what their plants are asking for. I think newbs miss this step, they dont read the plants and give them what they ask for, they just give them what they *think* the plant needs.

solarz

 

[WeedHopper]

I agree with Tater,,and I do understand that the Nutes mean nothing, if the PH, Lights,heat,moisture,fesh air and everything else is not right. But,,I thought most already knew this as a basic understanding before adding nutes. To say that Nutes have nothing to do with yeild just seems to be pushing the envolope a bit to me. I do agree that PPL have a tendancy to use more then needed and over Fert thinking it is answer to everything. But to say it doesnt increase yeild,,I dont know.

 

[NorCalHal]

Great debate, and all have Valid points.

Skallie, noone is clowning you bro, in fact the opposite. Don't just split man.

Tater makes some great points. But, speaking strickly for GH 3 part, nothing more is needed to acheive maximum results hydroponically.
imho, a simple adjustment in either your Micro, or Bloom nuits can produce the same results as adding an additive to boost P for instance. This has been my experience and I get consistent results.

Now again, this is speaking only for GH 3 part, in which this thread was started.

The PH drift, as mentioned ,is actually critical for optimum uptake in a hydro system. Another misconception by hydro growers. Alot of new growers tend to check PH daily and adjust daily back to the 5.6 range.
Myself, I adjust to around 5.6, and let her drift. She usually ends up at about 6.2 in a 7 day period, just in time for a water change.
P, fr example isn't maximised for uptake until around 5.9 -6.0


Lets get back to Lucas. Sure, he is not the end all be all of MJ growing. But what he did alone is create a SIMPLE yet effective formula that basicaly ensures no nutriunt defiencies for a Basic Hydro grow. IMO, if you use his forumla to the tee, then any issues with your Garden will be room condition related. Once a person fixes the room conditions, they can begin to concentrate on "tweaking" the lucas formula, knowing that any changes to plant health will be directly related to Nuits.

All in all, the Lucas formula is a GREAT starting point for beginner Hydro growers.

 

[NorCalHal]

To say that Nutes have nothing to do with yeild just seems to be pushing the envolope a bit to me.

I don't think anyone is saying "don't use nuits", I think it is more about not usuing additives to a nuit regimine. But hey man, I just woke up and havn't burned anything yet!

 

[WeedHopper]

I don't think anyone is saying "don't use nuits", I think it is more about not usuing additives to a nuit regimine. But hey man, I just woke up and havn't burned anything yet!

Might be right Bro,,I was high. Besides I like Debates. I learn alot from these discussions,,and sometimes I just like watching PPL's reactions to things.