Any Electicans Around. PEASE HELP!!!

[mikeybtoken]

OK finnally!!! If I did this right....
Pic One is of the box it's self.
Pic Two is the box with the the cover off.
Pic Three is showing the switch that controls all power comming out of the timer box.
Pic Four is me trying to get a better pic of that swith in the box.
Pic Five is showing how I had it hooked up to the dryer cord outlet. The reason that I am putting in the sub panel. NOT SAFE... FIRE HAZARD...COULD BURN DOWN THE HOUSE.

It's not really that funny but I have to laugh everytime I quote bwanabuds post about burning down the house. At the same time I do realize that it is no joke and that's why I'm here.

I have more pics but I'm not sure that either bwanabud or viper will really need them until I get some work done.
I'm off to possibly pick up a main breaker for the new panel and some 12/2 wire. I hope that I'm not making this more confusing than it needs to be, if so just tell me what I need to do to make this easier.

Peace MBT

 

[DonJones]

Actually, if no one has messed with the dryer breaker in the main panel, all plugging your 60 amp system into the dry receptacle would do is cause the dry circuit breaker to trip at what ever amperage it it intended to carry, usually 30 or 40 amps.

The circuit breaker does NOT allow the amperage to exceed a preset amount regardless of what you hook to it.

 

[viper]

no big deal bwannabud , you are right about continuous loads but all is not continuous load here , lets size his sub panel at 125 % and maybe the lighting but lets help mikey out , what do you say ?

mikey ,

pics are good man.

did you remove the timer ?

no worries about the wire size its just the insulation they used when they made the wire back then ,,,, hey in pic 1 of main panel , that white wire at top left looks a little black , is that electrical tape or did it get hot ?

 

[mikeybtoken]

Welcome DonJones
The 60amp breaker at the bottom of pic #2 is one that I added to the Main Panel. The house dryer breaker is on another circuit.
Hi viper
did you remove the timer ?
In post #22 pic # 5 you can see how it was hooked up. At this time there is nothing pluged into the jumped 110 off of the 220-30amp dryer plug. So yes I removed the timer a few days ago.
The wire that you are looking at is off of the 60amp breaker going to the Heat Pump/HVAC unit and is just painted? New house, new panel so no problems there.

So I have set all of the boxes and am going to run wire on them today.

This is what I came up with:

 

[mikeybtoken]

So here is my plan so far??? Box #6 will be the 30amp dryer receptical that I already have. Shown in post 22 pic #5

Ciruit #1
Boxes 1,2 and 5, will be on a single, 110 - 20amp circuit.

Circuit #2
Boxes 3,4 are 220 -20amp recepticals. I need to get a 20amp dual pole breaker. The one I had puchased for this circuit is a 25amp.

Circuit #3
Box #6 is the 30amp dryer cord receptical and this will be on it's own 30amp breaker.

I have an extra 20amp breaker if I want to run split Circuit #1 into two circuits, but I'm not sure that I need to.

Questions?

# 1 Do I have to remove the jumper grounding bar from the new panel?
# 2 Should I install a Main Breaker into my new panel, if so does it have to a 125amp. I'm thinking that the 60amp breaker in the main panel is already acting as a main.

Other than that I think I'm ready to run wire. My plan is to use you boys for my final inspection before I hook up power.

I think that I'm on the right path here but we will see?

Running the wires might take me a day or two, LOL If you guys were doing this the whole thing would probably take less than an hour, while taking bong loads every five minutes.

Peace MBT

 

[viper]

yes , your doing great

yes , remove the jumper bar in the sub panel , it should have come with a big green screw that you use to bond the ground bar to the can itself ,, theres a pre drilled hole in the ground bar , screw it down tight . make sure you dont put any white wires on it , only ground wires

no need for a breaker in the sub , unless you want to be able to shut it all down from there . and if so you need to put in a 60 not a 125 .

 

[mikeybtoken]

Hi viper
Not much got done I lost steam today. I have been a bit confused about removing the jumper bar.
It does not look like the one in my seimens main panel. It looks like it is molded into the plastic housing. It is also what holds the two ground bus bars into the box. Also the green ground screw goes through the center of it?
I could be smoking too much weed here but it sure does not seem like this one is made to be removed?????
Thoughts????

A, Way Too Stoned, need to come down and look at it again before getting baked first ting in the AM

B, This box is not made to have the jumper removed?

C I don't know #### and I'm missing something really simple?

D All of the above???


Peace MBT

 

[Growdude]

yes , your doing great

yes , remove the jumper bar in the sub panel , it should have come with a big green screw that you use to bond the ground bar to the can itself ,, theres a pre drilled hole in the ground bar , screw it down tight . make sure you dont put any white wires on it , only ground wires

no need for a breaker in the sub , unless you want to be able to shut it all down from there . and if so you need to put in a 60 not a 125 .

Your going to need a 4 wire feeder to the sub and remove the jumper, it looks like the screws come out then remove the bar and put the screws back in.
You cant feed that subpannel from the dryer cord.

 

[mikeybtoken]

Hi Growdude
LOL...I have never had intentions to feed the new panel off of the dryer
outelt.
The new panel will feed the 30amp dryer outlet off of a 30amp breaker. I already have a 6/3 with a copper ground feeder cable installed off of a 60amp breaker in my main panel.

I'M STUCK ON THIS JUMPER BAR.......HELP!!!

Pic #1
Is showing the bottom of the new sub panel where the jumper bar is conected to the ground bus bars.
If you look to the right of this picture you can see that the jumper bar is incased in the plastic housing.
THE GROUND BUS BARS ARE NOT AT THE BOTTOM. With the screws out they are loose at the bottom. The screws do NOT conect them to the plastic housing?

Pic #2
Is a close up of the left side conection. I could cut the top of the plastic housing to remove the jumper but even if I did so, the bus bars would still only be conected at the top. Which I could remedy by tapping a screw through but I'd rather not!

Pic #3
Is showing the right side conection. If you look at the first third of the jumper bar you will notice about a 1/4 inch hole where the jumper is held in place to the housing. I was thinking about dremeling out the piece of housing that holds the jumper from moving from side to side.

Pic #4 is just showing where the green ground screw is located in the middle of the jumper bar.

After taking the box completely apart now a few times I have come to the conclusion that
1, Maybe this box is just not made to have the jumper removed.
2, I am missing something really simple.
3, Maybe I should just take this one back and get a box that does not have to be modified to remove the jumper, if that is actually the case.

Pretty much everything else is ready to go with the exception of pounding that 8ft grounding rod in another location. I hit rocks at about 4-1/2 - 5ft twice now. What a pain in the but that thing is.
My neighbor just caught me on a ladder with a sledge hammer pounding the crap out of that thing and gave me a real funny look. I was going to say something but I just could not think of any good excuse for what I was doing so I just smiled, waived and acted like I knew what I was doing.....LOL. I think that I hurt my self on that second hole. Can I cut this thing is half?

I could really use some options here!

Peace MBT

 

[clanchattan]

ground rod whomping is a lot easier when you rent a hilti gun from HD.

you can leave the jumper in. the NEC refers to the neutral as a "grounded conductor". your transformer that feeds your house is fed by a high voltage wire and steps the hv current down into 240/120v. the neutral that comes into your house is created in the transformer and is bonded to the line side (hv side) ground at the pole. your neutral entering your house has continuity to ground.

 

[viper]

ok , your gonna have to install a seperate ground bar , thats the one thing i dont like about square d you cant simply remove the jumper .


screw all that back down and do not install that green screw , just toss it away . home depot or lowes has them in the electrical section it looks just like the one in your panel ,ask for help if ya need ------------

there are some prefab holes in the panel that you screw down a new ground bar to , pic 3 i see them , youll have to maybe remove some of the set screws of the new grd bar to match them up to .

 

[bwanabud]

Hi Mikey,
Back from my deathbed (the flu).

Put the existing ground bar jumper back together, and tighten well. Chuck the green screw.

Like Viper say's...go pick up an auxiliary ground bar, mount it horizontally centered in the bottom portion of the box. You should be able to get the screws to line up.

Everything else looks pretty good. But I still haven't seen a total load list. You have to assume continuous load on some of these circuits (lights, fan, cooling). So let's figure out total load capacity for the room(just to be safe). You will want to leave some additional capacity for future expansion, or forgotten needs (propagation mats, radio, mini hydro, ect...)

We know that you're figuring a Max 60amp sub panel capacity ... you don't need to add a main breaker at the sub. As long as you are switching most of the devices, or can kill the necessary breakers in the room.

 

[mikeybtoken]

Thanks Guys
Hi clanchatten, have you ever tried to do something where the whole time that your doing it your thinking there has to be a much easier way.
I'm still not sure what kind of Hilti tool will pound this sucker in? But I will call a rental place first thing in the AM. Great Idea!!!

Wew.....I thought that I was loosing my mind on this jumper bar!!! An auxiliary ground bar, now that makes much more sense. I just knew that there had to be a simple solution.
It's kinda funny that the two things that I thought for sure would be the easiest have turned out to be the hardest.

bwanabud I hope that your feeling better!
OK lets see, total load list? This is from post #20 where viper came up with a list of everything that I can possibly think of.

(Revised)
Max Loads
viper you are really close on what I have now, I will be adding a portable AC/Unit, probably no bigger than a 10,000 BTU unit. I would like to make sure that I have enough to run another 1000w light in the future. I can't think of anything else other than a couple of 110 lights and a second heater if it gets supper cold.

4 - 1000w 240v lights = 12.5 amps + 4amps = 16.5-17
2-8" exhaust fans 1.6a each=3.2
2-oscilating fans .4a each=.8
dehumidifier 5a
space heater 12.5a x 2 = 25
4-air pumps .04a each=.16
Portable AC untit 10-12amps

I don't ever see needing more than 60amps, but I will most likely never actually use more than 40-50amps at one time, if that.

Man I'm paying for my attempt at that ground rod. I may be down for a day or two because of it. If I'm gone for a day or so I'll be back.

Hey I want thank everyone for everything, I figure that I should be ready for a final inspection by the end of the weekend for sure. Maybe sooner depending on how I do in the AM? Hey it is the AM. I will post pics then wait a couple of days before I power up. Let you boys pic thru them to see if I missed or messed anything up. Like I said before I'm in no huge hurry.
Time to medicate!!!
Thanks Again!!!
Peace MBT

PS It's going to be really cool to remove all of extension cords for good!

 

[bwanabud]

Mikey,
You got a PM

 

[mikeybtoken]

Thanks bwanabud.
I will definately try the 45deg angle trick on my next attempt at the ground rod.
OK So here's what happened! I hurt myself on that darn ground rod yesterday could hardly sleep until I got extremely medicated. I knew when I woke up this morning, that I should have just waited until tomorrow to mess with any of it but I thought I'll do some easy stuff, highly medicated and stoned. Off to Home Depot I go.
I got the auxiliary ground bar and another ground rod and few odds and ends. Then I start thinking, this is where I should have stopped!!!
So I figure that I will just put the ground bar in and hook up the grounds. How hard can it be? (That's me thinking again) Then I'll just get some rest and heal up a bit.
So here is what I did.

 

[mikeybtoken]

First pic
Is showing new ground bar and all of the white ran to it and all copper to the ground bus bar...of coarse the 220's don't go the auxilary bar but now they are short.
Second pic
Is showing how I had planned on putting the breakers in with a 30 amp top right a 20 amp 220 top left (I know I forgot to pic up another 20 amp dual pole breaker) Anyway so top left has a 25 for now. Then the two 20 - 110 breakers under the 30amp on the left.
Pic #3 is showing my question? Can or should I just move the breakers to make it work, or just pull new 220s ?????

I'm going to rest and not mess with any of it today!!! Tha's the smartest thing that I've said so far!!! (Kinda laughing, but not really) I knew better!!!

Pain, pot, medication and electrical don't mix!!!!!!!!

I'll try again tomorrow.

Peace MBT

 

[clanchattan]

you can put those breakers in any order you want (or that'll fit) your wiring.

 

[bwanabud]

Just move those breakers down, so the wire is long enough. Fill the blanks with spares if needed.

 

[viper]

you need to swap the grounds and neutral wires ---- the grounds need to go to the new ground bar and the whites need to go to the panel ground bar

 

[viper]

the trick to driving a ground rod is to use water for the first 5 ft then use sledge for the remainder ---- easy as pie

ever seen one of those old butter churners ? its like that -- pour water, ram the rod in and out until its workable with a sledge from a standing position