Creating Feminized Seeds - The Right Way

[born2killspam]

It seems that the prominence is due to poor feminization practices, namely using hermies to create feminized seeds. As I mentioned in the post, these are technically feminized seeds but they are also guaranteed to have the hermie trait...a lot of feminized seed companies do this because it is cheap and easy to do.

I don't want to discount what you said about introducing abnormalities - the best way to find out for sure will be to stress the offspring and see what percentage hermie.

Well, there is NO way to get feminized seeds without a hermie.. It would be nice if there was a less poor way, but there is not..
Secondly.. Hermaphrodism is something that 'atleast' 99.99999% of marijuana plants carry the genes for.. The question is how their other genes allow them to resist that.. The best feminizing candidates 'should' yield seeds that exhibit the same resistance, thats why I'm assuming there must be other problems..
My point is that properly feminized seeds 'should' be the least likely to herm.. Observations simply don't match theory..

 

[born2killspam]

Ya know what I'd really like to see, is a batch of seeds produced from XX pollen, and XY flowers..

 

[THCPezDispenser]

Well, there is NO way to get feminized seeds without a hermie.. It would be nice if there was a less poor way, but there is not..

So let's think about this. You are technically correct, as in if you use gibberrellic acid to create a male flower on a branch of a female plant, it is a plant with both male and female parts, making it visibly a hermie. However the difference here is that this wasn't the result of the plant doing it on it's own in reaction to it's environment. The process I listed weeds out plants that do this through the stress testing. The ones that show themselves very hermie-resistant due to stress is our holy grail, these are the ones we want to use as our pseudo-males. The difference between poor feminized seeds and superior ones is that the poor ones are made from natural hermies that turned due to stress and pass that trait on to the offspring, while the process outlined in the thread start with a plant that is hermie-resistant and we artifically create pollen using an external natural hormone.

Poor ones - they are hermie to begin with so the offspring can become hermies as well and spoil a garden;

Superior ones - the breeding stock has been proven to be hermie resistant so the offspring should be as well. Gibberrellic acid is not a mutagen, it is not going to destroy that genetic resistance.

 

[THCPezDispenser]

Ya know what I'd really like to see, is a batch of seeds produced from XX pollen, and XY flowers..

Haha, I'm not sure if gibberric acid put on a male will turn it to a female, interesting experiment to add

 

[THCPezDispenser]

My point is that properly feminized seeds 'should' be the least likely to herm.. Observations simply don't match theory..

Ok I think I missed this point in my previous response, but I'm not sure if the observations of this are out there. Feminized seed makers typically don't say their method, so what you have observed may be in fact feminized seeds from a hermie? Perhaps the breeder didn't go through the rigor of using good stock? This is more a comparison of the breeder methods which I don't think we have facts on to do a proper analysis.

 

[canibanol cannonball]

I'll probably regret responding to this, but I will.



So I agree with you on 2 of the 3 items. I haven't seen anywhere implying that gibberric acid "causes" hermies. If you have, I would love to read more about it. It creates male flowers, it doesn't alter genetics to introduce a hermie trait where it didn't exist before. That stressing process I mentioned is intended to identify and remove hermies from the genetic pool, not introduce them.



Well thank you, that was my goal



Maybe I am misreading your response, but the negative connotation makes it sound like you think I am promoting hermies, which I was not. There was a detailed section on how to identify and get rid of them from your breeding stock through stress testing. Isn't this a good thing? I would argue a lot of people have hermies and don't even know it since the stress level is never reached to identify them because of the good care we have learned to provide to the plants.



Because I am curious. Because I like to experiment. Because I don't believe in not speaking about subjects and exploring them because they are considered taboo when there may be value hidden under the bias. Because humans like to maipulate nature to it's benefit - White Widow is a creation of man, not nature

I wasnt meaning to come off so negative im just passionate about my take on things.
White Wid is man made but i dont think the original was feminized. I believe that ALL strains herm under stress/mismanagement. IMO male plants have a purpose. I dont wanna see cannabis pollinating itself. Doesn't inbreeding stabilize a strain?

 

[THCPezDispenser]

I wasnt meaning to come off so negative im just passionate about my take on things.
White Wid is man made but i dont think the original was feminized. I believe that ALL strains herm under stress/mismanagement. IMO male plants have a purpose. I dont wanna see cannabis pollinating itself. Doesn't inbreeding stabilize a strain?

It's all good conversation man

By inbreeding here I meant crossing a plant with itself, not close relatives (which is done to stabilize a strain).

I used White Widow as an example of why we don't always leave well enough alone and simply rely on nature, not really in the context of feminization.

 

[born2killspam]

Just to be clear, silver ions, and gibberellic acid promotes intersexed flowers in the same way accidental hermies come about.. The ethylene transport systems are disrupted..
I agree with CC though.. I think that if you try hard enough you can get any plant to flip without special chemicals..

 

[papabeach1]

Absolutely! Pull up a chair I am trying to find a better spot for my grow, I need a bit more space than I have so stay tuned...

I have tried your lighting way of "boot camp" seem it works.. but hey..

if you gonna spout the seeds on your own, its on, I'm in... I ll follow your way... see if that gonna work...

walk that talk.. lets experience it..:hubba:

 

[canibanol cannonball]

i just wanna add i dont dissagree with 'thc methods (i wouldnt know if they work or not) but the method itself. IMO breeders should focus on potency and yeild not marketing ploys like feminization or auto-flower

 

[born2killspam]

Chemicals are a sure fire method no doubt.. My point was that intrinsically the same process is being employed.. Like if you need to rip up some concrete, the best way would be to get a proper tool like a jack-hammer, but if you're willing to spend the extra effort, a sledge hammer, or even a spoon will give you the same end result..

 

[THCPezDispenser]

Chemicals are a sure fire method no doubt.. My point was that intrinsically the same process is being employed.. Like if you need to rip up some concrete, the best way would be to get a proper tool like a jack-hammer, but if you're willing to spend the extra effort, a sledge hammer, or even a spoon will give you the same end result..

I disagree here. To expand on your analogy, I think it is more like having a crazy neighbour who comes and destroys the concrete in your steps when you are at work because he is stressed out, versus having a neighbour who is a demolition expert who you ask to remove your steps for you. The second neighbour isn't just going to randomly destroy your property

 

[THCPezDispenser]

Just to be clear, silver ions, and gibberellic acid promotes intersexed flowers in the same way accidental hermies come about.. The ethylene transport systems are disrupted..

Yes, I agree. This is cause and effect. The difference in what we are talking about is for a hermie, it will do it when stressed when YOU don't want it to. With gibberellic acid, you are in control.

I agree with CC though.. I think that if you try hard enough you can get any plant to flip without special chemicals..

I'd agree. The trick to having a good plant is to find one that won't do it at the drop of a hat. Accidents happen in a growing environment, and in that case it is more advantageous to have plants that can tolerate more abuse before they reach their threshold and hermie.

 

[born2killspam]

I'm confused then, if you agree with both of those points, then what is your beef with natural stressing to herm? I mean so long as you need to abuse the hell out of it to a point damn near death, revive it to test, and repeat several times? I mean you have to perform these tests anyways to choose a suitable candidate for GA.. Then you can either give it 12/12 for a few days, then 5.5/1/5.5 for a few weeks, or wait until the flowers over ripen and grow pollen sacks..

 

[THCPezDispenser]

I think I guess I am confused here too
What are we talking about? :48:

I thought you were trying to make a point that gibberellic acid making male flowers is the same as a hermie caused by stess, which it isn't...?

So what's the goal here? It's to find a plant that is suitable for cultivation that won't hermie during the flowering cycle and ruin a crop. If it hermie's because you have let the buds overripen, well you've ruined your weed anyway, so does it really matter? Gibberellic acid will induce male flowers, but that doesn't matter either, unless you are growing in a space contaminated with it, which I don't think is very common. You don't want a plant that when stressed will turn, that is the practical danger to growers.

I think you are trying to prove that ANY female will create male flowers under certain conditions?

 

[born2killspam]

Exactly, that is basically my point.. Effort is the determining factor..
How do you contend that its different? From what I have read, stress in general impedes ethylene utilization causing male flowers, while chemical treatments impede ethylene pathways, causing male flowers..
And most ppl who use the 5.5/1/5.5 are able to get viable seeds from that very crop just like with chemical treatments.. I still believe that it is a poor choice to self a plant though when pollen can be harvested and applied to different XX genetics..

 

[THCPezDispenser]

Exactly, that is basically my point.. Effort is the determining factor..
How do you contend that its different? From what I have read, stress in general impedes ethylene utilization causing male flowers, while chemical treatments impede ethylene pathways, causing male flowers..
And most ppl who use the 5.5/1/5.5 are able to get viable seeds from that very crop just like with chemical treatments.. I still believe that it is a poor choice to self a plant though when pollen can be harvested and applied to different XX genetics..

Ok, so I can agree with your point that it is the same mechanism that actually causes the male flower to form. What I am asking is why that is relevant?

My responses are looking at it from the perspective of the trigger to cause the mechanism to produce the male flowers, not the physiological reason the flowers form once the process has started within the plant. Let's use a hypothetical stress scale from 1 to 10. 1 is the least stress, and 10 is the most. Now you have two different female plants. Plant A takes 1 unit of stress to form male flowers (impedement of ethelyne is great enough to causes male flowers to form). Plant B takes 10 units of stress before the impedement is great enough. Which one's offspring do you want in your real-world garden? Plant B, it's more tolerant to a stress event that may happen in the process of growing, so it has less chance of ruining a garden, and will pass that high tolerance level on in its offspring. You can't find out that Plant B is the superior plant with gibberellic acid... 100PPM on both Plant A and Plant B will cause male flowers to form. Why? I don't know. Maybe because it creates an ethelyne impedement far greater than a stress level of 10 would. But what conclusion can you draw from that?

Not sure what you mean by the light pattern? 12/12 - 24/0 - 12/12 replicates a light pattern is more like what a real-world grower would encounter due to something like a timer failure. At the end of the day when all the experimenting is done, you want to end up with plants that will be tolerant of common stress conditions a real world gardener would face. You have to pick some funky pattern (and this is pretty well an infinite amount of combinations) to use consistently to stress your candidates. Why not use one that may actually happen?

And yes, self pollenation is bad, you shouldn't do it. I didn't question you on that one.

 

[THCPezDispenser]

IMO breeders should focus on potency and yeild not marketing ploys like feminization or auto-flower

Why?

Here is my situation and why I like the idea of feminized seeds. I like to grow my own stuff and I would like to be self sufficent, I feel uneasy ordering seeds through the mail. I want to keep a 3 or less plant limit if I am busted to stay under the larger penalties (the second paranoia point but hey that's me ). I can't grow in a continuous cycle because of long periods of travel in my job, so keeping a clone mother around with no one to look after it for a month or more while I am gone is not practical for me.

Now times will come when I know I will be working locally and I will be home for a few months, so I go and plop 3 seeds in, only to find out 2 months later 2 of them are males. Bummer, I just cut down my potential yield in the period I can grow before I have to leave again to 1 third.

 

[canibanol cannonball]

for some people fem seeds have a place,your situation fits perfect. i would rather take the best of my stock and breed it. If i were to get 2 male 1 female i would obviosly pollinate with the best male and get a new batch of seeds for the next grow. There are ways to increase the % of females when planting. But...i have the time and space so feming is useless to me.

 

[Hick]

'PEZ.. I'm totally 'with' you on the selection process, as I said before. But here in lies the problem that I foresee.
What happens in following generations??
What happens when those hermie/femminised seeds are allowed to be used to produce subsequent fillia? or X to other plants? Plnts 'not' stress tested, or plants unknowingly holding a recessive hermie tendancy??
Here are "my" thoughts on femmed beans.. If you "MUST" experiment with producing them, keep the seed, lineage isolated from "any" possible reproduction by 'anyone' not totally aware and educated on the probability of hermies.. Accidental or purposely. IMO and many others, there is NO place in the breeding pool for hermies. They ARE detrimental to the production/further advancement of high quality pot.