Creating Feminized Seeds - The Right Way

[born2killspam]

Alas though, bag-seed is very likely to be created from XX pollen, and you can't stop ppl from growing/breeding with that.. Often bagseed comes from a long history of continual selfing.. The grower/buyer find seeds, grow them guerilla style the next year, and find mystery seeds in that crop too and so on..
Hick, where do you stand on bomb equatorial sativas, and their propensity to herm?

 

[THCPezDispenser]

Thanks for the comments Hick. I don't know if you can tell, but I'm really interested in this Hopefully you'll let me pick your brain so I can fill in the pieces I am missing here in my logic...

What happens when those hermie/femminised seeds are allowed to be used to produce subsequent fillia? or X to other plants? Plnts 'not' stress tested, or plants unknowingly holding a recessive hermie tendancy??

I'd argue you'd get the same results as if you were using non-feminized seeds... I think our major philisophical difference here is that you feel the gibberellic acid process creates offspring more likely to naturally hermie under stress? In my reading and my understanding what is happening, I don't feel this is the case. Or are you just saying people who do not know what they are doing shouldn't be creating seeds, either feminized or natural? Let me set up an example to see if it helps us drive out the exact point we disagree on.

So to anyone reading, the following is is a hypothetical scenario I am using to isolate some questions. It's not a "method"

Scenario 1 - Hick doesn't like feminized seeds, and absolutely does not want hermies. But he likes to produce seeds from time to time in the natural way. He has Plant A and Plant B, both are your special female clone mothers, and the apple of your eye. These mothers represent everything you feel is good about a marijuana plant. Great smoke, great growth characteristics, and in many generations of clone daughters from both of these plants (maybe even including a timer malfunction along the way), not one hermie. You also have a male Plant C, who is the brother of plant B (2 peas in a pod, if you will ), and knowing through experience how great his sister B is, you feel he would make an excellent father. You keep him in a vegatative state so you can cut a clone once in a while and flower a male to get pollen. You now take this pollen, and fertilize a flowering clone of Plant A. You have seeds now, and statistically, 50% are females. Question 1 - What do you think about the hermaphroditic tendencies of the females in this litter?

Scenario 2 - Pez is looking for some good plants to start his garden with. Hick generously gives Pez a clone from both A and B. He grows them out and starts two mothers of his own, genetically identical to Hick's mothers of course because they are clones. He makes some clones from them, flowers them, and gets ripped. Pez thinks this is the best weed in the world, wow, it's great (thanks Hick ) Now Pez finds out that in a few months for what ever reason he has to shut everything down and get rid of his mothers. In the mean time, because of a nasty argument about feminization on MP, Hick doesn't talk to Pez any more, and getting two new clones from him in the future is out of the question . Pez loves these genetics, and doesn't want to lose them, so he creates male flowers on B using gibberellic acid, and crosses it with A. Pez ends up with a litter of feminized seeds. Question 2 - What do you think about the hermaphroditic tendencies of the females in Pez's litter?

 

[THCPezDispenser]

for some people fem seeds have a place,your situation fits perfect. i would rather take the best of my stock and breed it. If i were to get 2 male 1 female i would obviosly pollinate with the best male and get a new batch of seeds for the next grow. There are ways to increase the % of females when planting. But...i have the time and space so feming is useless to me.

Absolutely man. My ideal setup would be a rocking clone mother with a continuous harvest cycle. All this talk is me trying to formulate a self sufficent process for my situation that works well, doesn't give me crap plants that hermie and destroy my precious crop in my limited grow cycles, and document it well so other people can take advantage too if it meets their needs.

 

[born2killspam]

Pez can benefit from Hick's scrutinous selection, but is as likely to see herms as any reputable feminized seed company while Hick would be taking a gamble.. Hick would know to consider the genotypes of A, B & C, if he knew their history.. If they were essentially siblings and already stabilized with C, Hick has a decent chance of predicting offspring, but if he can't be confident of that then he'd know that making any predictions is irresponsible, but he would have no reason to believe the results would be undesirable at all..

I'd argue you'd get the same results as if you were using non-feminized seeds...

Using the Punnet squares theory alone I'd agree with you, but as I mentioned earlier, I wonder if intersexed male flowers are as likely to produce viable pollen as XY flowers.. We are coercing the plants to create growth they hadn't really prepared for, and problems during cell division can cause genetic abnormalities like chromosome translocations/deletions etc.. These types of abnormalities are responsible for many diseases (like sickle cell anemia), but other times they can be relatively harmless..

 

[THCPezDispenser]

Using the Punnet squares theory alone I'd agree with you, but as I mentioned earlier, I wonder if intersexed male flowers are as likely to produce viable pollen as XY flowers.. We are coercing the plants to create growth they hadn't really prepared for, and problems during cell division can cause genetic abnormalities like chromosome translocations/deletions etc.. These types of abnormalities are responsible for many diseases (like sickle cell anemia), but other times they can be relatively harmless..

Bingo! This is the fundamental question, and one I don't know the answer to for sure either. My theory is that it would be ok. Why? Because as someone mentioned, most MJ will hermie if stressed enough, it is a natural built in survival mechanism to compensate for a poor growing environment. So if it naturally hermies, is the male pollen viable? I would say yes unless this survival mechanism of the marijuana species is in the early stages of natural selection and while a good idea from the perspective of the plant, it hasn't been quite perfected yet. And please don't read this as me saying hermies are great! Even if the pollen is viable, it is still passing along that low threshold turning hermie, which in the context of cultivating marijuana is BAD BAD BAD. If gibberellic acid (a natural hormone that we are externally introducing to the plant in levels that a good female with a low tendency to hermie wouldn't have on it's own) is used, is it pushing the same button to create the male flowers. Difference is that a garden variety hermie that no one likes is that it panics too easily and hits the button. In the GA3 case, WE push the button on a plant.

Is it the same button in both cases or is GA3 doing something wierd? I don't know. I take is it is a natural hormone, so probably it is the same button. I guess the real question as you mentioned is does nature have it right yet, is the survial instinct to create the male flowers still flawed at this point in the evolution of the species, causing genetic abnormalities in the pollen created. How can we find this out?

 

[born2killspam]

We really hit a wall there technologically.. Aside from results statistics we can't exactly determine pollen differences.. When I say 'viable' though, I mean 'totally healthy'.. It is possible that XX plants don't have the proper requirements to grow male flowers without problems being likely during cell division.. Obviously they can make pollen capable of pollinating.. Survival is worth a compromise that is for sure..
Its a known fact that some sperm etc have errors in the genetic information they carry.. This is my concern with XX pollen..

 

[THCPezDispenser]

Yep, I think that is where we are. And yes, I agree with your definition of viable. We know that hermies will produce seeds that can grow, I don't think anyone would dispute that. It's just a question of is the pollen equivalent of normal male pollen, with the exception of it carrying XX instead of XY. I think we are done here, off I go to see if I can find something to answer this! I believe (but admit I can't prove) it is fully viable pollen, just from the fact that hermaphrodism is predominantly common in the plant kingdom with adaptations being more geared around preventing pollenation with itself, which we all agree and nature agrees is not good.

 

[born2killspam]

Some plant species actually have genes that make self polination impossible.. MJ isn't one of them though..
If chromosomal abnormalities are more common with XX pollen though I'd expect some variations of mutations, but I have no way to know if there are extremely common abnormalities..
Hermaphrodism disregarded, what are ppl's experiences with other mutations from female seeds?

 

[Hick]

great discussion PEZ... but you're really wanting to make me think:stoned: ain't ya'..
I'll come back to this one when I have a little more time.

 

[4u2sm0ke]

yeah Hick you have be quik in this one..Im enjoying the experience...Thanks guys

 

[canibanol cannonball]

this might sound stupid but has anyone seen a Male herm?

 

[papabeach1]

1) The lights are turned on 12/12 for 10 days
2) Lights are turned on 24 hours
3) 12/12 again for 5 days
4) Lights are turned on 24 hours
5) 12/12 again for a few weeks

why not this one... to get more females by more period of light time..

1) The lights are turned on 18/6 for 10 days
2) Lights are turned on 24 hours
3) 18/6 again for 5 days
4) Lights are turned on 24 hours
5) 12/12 again for a few weeks
6) after determine the sexes and keep females, and go on with 24/7
if sexes is still too early, go back to step one... just that less par/light to plants can cause male sex to develop,

 

[Hick]

Scenario 1 Question 1 - What do you think about the hermaphroditic tendencies of the females in this litter?

First of all, a LOT depends on the lineage of the initial strain.. Providing that the strain is a long established, stable genetic, and not something like a "clone only" strain, which "I" tend to believe is nothing more than "one" exceptional pheno, I would 'think' that the tendency would be quite LOW, providing hick has had her through a few stressfull situations, and realizes her propensity to produce staminate flowers or not, and has provided for it in his selection as a Mother. BUT.. the trait could be lieing in the recessive or co-dominate alleles?? Not showing in this F1 generation, but could become a dominate traait in future fillia if the X is made again. Especially ig the stress testing isn't employed 'again' in selecting the next generation of plants.
F1 hybrids are known to express exceptional vigor and 'primarily' exhibit 50/50 characteristics of the mother and father.
Like my question was asking PEZ, it "usually" isn't in the F1's that the negatives become apparent, it's in following generations, that your primary "selection" process will be tested...IMO

Scenario 2:"Question 2 - What do you think about the hermaphroditic tendencies of the females in Pez's litter?"
First off, I know this guy. No matter how 'heated' the discussion at MP, he would likely NOT deny you the cuts, in preference to seeing you attempting "femmed seeds".. :rofl: .. hee hee
.....but given the "hypothetical" case, you are basically making the same X as hick made w/ his 'natural' male, except useing pollen from GA induced staminates? right? I think that puts us back to here..
"It's just a question of is the pollen equivalent of normal male pollen, with the exception of it carrying XX instead of XY.",,, "I" don't know r have that answer :confused2: either.
From watching journals here, I've not seen a 'lot' of mutations in the fwmmed seeds, but just as with hicks X, the following generations will be the 'tale tellers'.. IMO

this might sound stupid but has anyone seen a Male herm?

yes CC. Though far less common, males can produce pistils, too.

 

[Hick]

1) The lights are turned on 12/12 for 10 days
2) Lights are turned on 24 hours
3) 12/12 again for 5 days
4) Lights are turned on 24 hours
5) 12/12 again for a few weeks

why not this one... to get more females by more period of light time..

1) The lights are turned on 18/6 for 10 days
2) Lights are turned on 24 hours
3) 18/6 again for 5 days
4) Lights are turned on 24 hours
5) 12/12 again for a few weeks
6) after determine the sexes and keep females, and go on with 24/7
if sexes is still too early, go back to step one... just that less par/light to plants can cause male sex to develop,

because more females is not "what" is being tested for. The eratic cycle is to promote the expression of hermies, so they can be eliminated from the breeding process..

 

[papabeach1]

so I do need keep one male near by to get all female to stick to be females?

and they can feel they are available for breeding process, if so they can stay in female mode and stick with it?

 

[THCPezDispenser]

so I do need keep one male near by to get all female to stick to be females?

and they can feel they are available for breeding process, if so they can stay in female mode and stick with it?

I'm not quite sure what you are asking? You don't want any males near your females. The test is taking some females, stressing them, and seeing which ones don't turn into a hermie with the funky light schedule. The ones that don't turn are the superior ones, you get rid of the rest. The ones that pass can then be used for breeding purposes.

 

[born2killspam]

Honestly I have no idea if male proximity subtly affects cannibis.. It is an issue in some other species..

 

[papabeach1]

lets get back to the point, and cut the long deep explanation

10 plants I have is confirmed females..which is sweet...from bag seeds. yay..

my most fear is.. to have them turn to be hermie!! I have decide to keep all females as MOTHERS...

and the bottom line here is how to create a feminized seeds.. and how do I stick these 10 plants to stay in female mode? I plan to reverse the lights to be 24/7 and build a little room for all mothers.. it will be nice if anyone can school me to make feminized seeds.. I aint gonna sell the seeds...but willing to give away (not all of seeds!) and people can grow more with better traits of females in U.S. than to deal with dutch seeds..

 

[THCPezDispenser]

lets get back to the point, and cut the long deep explanation

Papa,

There is no quick answer for this. Breeding correctly is an advanced topic, and not understanding the long deep explainations means you probably need some more time, research and experience before you go taking on making feminized seeds.

To answer your question, if these 10 plants have a strong hermie trait, there is nothing you can do about that. There is no magical way to reverse this. We have been talking about eliminating hermies from a successive breeding line, and this could take 100's of plants and possibly years depending on the size of your setup and the quality of the plants you are evaluating.

If you are just trying to grow weed for yourself, buy seeds from a reputable dealer, and create mother's to clone from. Care for the plants well based on all the great advice you can find in this forum. In the course of growing out the plants, if you find any of the clones hermie, destroy the originating mother plant as she is has a hermie tendency, and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[papabeach1]

it best not have strong hermie traits now that you mention!!

like u said one of the crop will turn to hermie if theres is no males around?

now I have hard time to decide about keep male if I get one.. or destroy it

would female stay in mode of female if just one male is around? like 10 feet away from females?