Molasses and Corn Syrup

[alaskabud]

So will 2 weeks of the corn syrup do anything? Not to get back to the original question, Or should I not add it now.

Go for it. If you want better yield, taste and smell. Don't get the impression by some comment on this thread that there aren't hundreds of people that use corn syrup if you look around the net. Here's a couple guys.

http://www.hg420.com/showthread.php?t=33022&highlight=corn+syrup

 

[trichnut]

i just skimmed through this post... what i get from all this is that molasses or corn syrup is to feed the microbes in the soil. and if so would that mean that its for the most part the same thing as liquid karma by botanicare?

 

[willPow3r]

Plants don't absorb sugars through their root system. All the sugar they use they create via the process of photosynthesis (water + carbon dioxide --light--> sucrose + oxygen) (more specifically, 11 H2O + 12 CO2 --hv--> C12H22O11 + 12 O2) in their leaves, which is then transported to the roots for storage. There are microbes in the roots of plants that use some of these sugars, which then respire carbon dioxide for reuptake by the plant (symbiotic relationship). Adding sugar (molasses) to the soil of your plants will aid in keeping the microbes in the soil healthy, but since the plants cannot absorb sugar through their roots, doing so will do nothing for your plants directly. That said, if your plants are experiencing growth or health issues, there are much more effective solutions than using molasses (or corn syrup).


Sources (interesting stuff):

physorg.com/news111926587.html
pearsoned.ca/school/science11/biology11/sugartransport.swf
plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/62/4/550.pdf
answers.com/topic/sugar-crops-and-natural-sweeteners

*These URLs would have been linked, but since this is my first post, I can't add hyperlinks to websites external of this site. Copy/paste to get them to work.*

 

[stoner 420]

do u just add the molasses to plain water or to my nutrient water.. i grow in soil ... i am almost ready to start feeding them the nutrient and want to start the molasses at the same time ( experiment) just need to know how often to give it to them and how...... thanks

 

[massproducer]

I would have to disagree with a lot of the science of what you said... Firstly Microbes do not live in the roots. The live on the roots and in the medium but they do not live in the roots, and have access to whatever they want, they have access to what the plant doesn't use which is mainly glucose, which is a simple sugar. The other sugar created is fructose, which is mainly chained together and stored to use as future energy.

secondly the symbotic relationship that is created mainly with fungi, not microbes/bacteria is mainly benefical to the plants because the fungi break down organic material and make the minerals availible to the plants. The also attach themselves to the roots to increase the roots surface area allowing it to uptake more water and nutrients.

The fact is that most major nutrient companies use high grade sugars in their nutrient formulas because it is a major nutrient chelator and greatly assists with nutrient uptake ( especially K). By keeping all minerals and elements in the medium consistant with the amount that is present in the roots and leaves, you avoid your plant passing its stored carbohydrates into the medium to regulate the levels.

By the way I have looked at all of those links and none of them say anything about roots not being able to uptake carbohydrates.

Plants don't absorb sugars through their root system. All the sugar they use they create via the process of photosynthesis (water + carbon dioxide --light--> sucrose + oxygen) (more specifically, 11 H2O + 12 CO2 --hv--> C12H22O11 + 12 O2) in their leaves, which is then transported to the roots for storage. There are microbes in the roots of plants that use some of these sugars, which then respire carbon dioxide for reuptake by the plant (symbiotic relationship). Adding sugar (molasses) to the soil of your plants will aid in keeping the microbes in the soil healthy, but since the plants cannot absorb sugar through their roots, doing so will do nothing for your plants directly. That said, if your plants are experiencing growth or health issues, there are much more effective solutions than using molasses (or corn syrup).


Sources (interesting stuff):

physorg.com/news111926587.html
pearsoned.ca/school/science11/biology11/sugartransport.swf
plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/62/4/550.pdf
answers.com/topic/sugar-crops-and-natural-sweeteners

*These URLs would have been linked, but since this is my first post, I can't add hyperlinks to websites external of this site. Copy/paste to get them to work.*

 

[massproducer]

By the way Oxygen is not stored or transported in the leaves or roots, it is a waste product. Oxygen is expelled through the stoma, and what you have left is sucrose which has the molecular structure of C12H22O11

 

[willPow3r]

I would have to disagree with a lot of the science of what you said... Firstly Microbes do not live in the roots. The live on the roots and in the medium but they do not live in the roots

Quote from the first article: "There are rich communities of microbes growing in or around the roots of all plants growing in normal soil. Most do no harm to the plant, and some are very beneficial to it."

secondly the symbotic relationship that is created mainly with fungi, not microbes/bacteria is mainly benefical to the plants because the fungi break down organic material and make the minerals availible to the plants.

The type of fungi that you speak of, mycorrhizal fungi, is a type of microbe. Another quote from the same article: "The role of mycorrhizal fungi is better known. They are particularly important in carbon cycling, because they pump the carbon compounds out of the root into a massive network of fine fungal filaments in the soil, where it becomes available to other microbes and also to larger soil organisms like worms, mites and insects. In return, the fungus gathers phosphorus from the soil and delivers it to the plant, helping the plant to grow better. The research confirmed that there were many different fungi in the roots of each plant, but revealed, for the first time, which of these fungi were most active."

By the way I have looked at all of those links and none of them say anything about roots not being able to uptake carbohydrates.

Carbohydrates (complex sugars) are too large to pass through the semi-permeable membrane that makes up the roots. Water and minerals can pass through, thanks to osmotic pressure. (members.aol.com/profchm/osmotic.html)

 

[Hick]

I don't often find anything to disagree with mass' about, you're always right on the money... but on 'this' one, I have to agree with will. I believe that the "sugars" are beneficial to the soil and nutrient uptake through chelation.(?), but have 'doubt' about their actual "use" by the plants.

 

[massproducer]

i will say it again, Mycorrhizal fungi are not microbes... Microbes are microscopic organisms, basically single celled organisms. Mycorrhizal fungi on the other hand are mutli celled molds, the purpose of mycorrhizae are to decompose organic material, to remove the carbon. As they do this they break the organic material down into its inorganic minerals making them availible to plants. Also the plants use the fungi's mycelium to expand their feeding capabilites. Fungi do not generate any of there own minerals, the decompose, what is already present. The fastest cultured and most prevelent being trichoderma, or to any mushroom growers "the feared Green Mold"

Microbes on the other hand are used to fix minerals within a medium and decompose organic material into humus. There are nitrogen fixing bacteria, phosphate fixing bacteria, sulfur fixing bacteria and others. These Bacteria take minerals from the air and make them availible to plants. Most of the fixing bacteria actually come from the air and land on the medium and colonate it, while the decomposers are already present in the soil. Microbes produce food, fungi do not. The carbon cycle is not very important growing inside as opposed to outside because there are no animals decomposing, in my medium. While there are fungi that are microbes, those fungi are all simple single celled fungi, called yeasts.

See I never said that plants actually absorb the actual sugar in the form of a sugar crystal, IMO, once the sucrose is dissolved into water and nutrients the chemical structure is going to start changing. If we look at what we have, we essentially have carbon and water in a long chain. Chelation means that certain elements have a tendency to bind to insoluble metals to make them availible to plants or other organisms. It is a fact that sugar are excellent natural chelators. Like I said that is why most nutrient companies add them, wheather organic or chemical based. chelators form long chains of minerals and carbs so I do not think that the length matters as most of these will get absorbed by the mycorrizae and then passed to the roots as most things will once the colony is established.

So basically I responded to this thread because I read

" There are microbes in the roots of plants that use some of these sugars, which then respire carbon dioxide for reuptake by the plant (symbiotic relationship). Adding sugar (molasses) to the soil of your plants will aid in keeping the microbes in the soil healthy, but since the plants cannot absorb sugar through their roots, doing so will do nothing for your plants directly."

This says that all I will get from feeding molasses or any carb/sugar is extra C02. Even in a totally sterile hydroponic grow, using H2O2 to kill beneficals, sugars will still chelate your nutes and make them more efficient by chaining them in long chains and keeping them in soluble forms. This is important... to me anyways.

The other reason was that I do not agree that the carbon cycle is the main symbiotic reletionship that we are trying to achieve. IMO, the nitrogen cycle and mycorrizal fungi are much more important growing inside... now if we are talking outside then yes, the carbon cycle becomes important I guess, but that is important to the environment, not my grow in perticular. But mycorrizal fungi can help my plant survive droughts, and gain access to nutrients that they would not have been able to access.

I will admitt that I have no clue if the major benefits of supplementing carbs are just because it is such a great chelator or if it is creating some other more complex chemical reaction or if the carbs are just being uptaken and working themselves. I somewhat suspect that it is somewhat like organics in that other chemical and elements are produced by the microbes that are not normally present in chemically feed mediums, which in turn leads to a greater terpine and flavonoid production, but now with the chelated nutrients being rapidly and efficiently absorbed, the plants get a boost in growth. These are obviously just theories, but I have done a lot of research on the matter as my last few grows I have been trying to harbour beneficals.

Lastly feeding the microoganisms, not the fungi, will directly produce nutrients that will be readily availible to plants, e.g, nitrogen/phosphorous/sulfer fixation, by only feeding sugars.

Honestly I am still not really convinced that plants can not uptake carbon or sugars, especially because I keep finding statements like this:

"Autotrophs are organisms that produce their own organic compounds using carbon dioxide from the air or water in which they live. To do this they require an external source of energy. Almost all autotrophs use solar radiation to provide this, and their production process is called photosynthesis. A small number of autotrophs exploit chemical energy sources in a process called chemosynthesis. The most important autotrophs for the carbon cycle are trees in forests on land and phytoplankton in the Earth's oceans"

Marijuana is an Autotroph, so that to me sounds like plants can absorb carbon from the air or the water.

Also please remember that I really didn't ever say that Sugars were absorbs as is.

 

[massproducer]

Osmosis does not limit carbohydrates from being passed through the roots, only polysaccharides in very complex chains. Osmosis says that a Hypotonic(higher water concentration) solution will make your plants roots uptake water and minerals, an isotonic solution (equal water concentration as the roots) will cause no water or nutes to be uptaken but also none will be lost. And a hypertonic solution ( lower water concentration) will cause your plants to loose water and nutes due to osmosis.

 

[POTUS]

So it would be a good time to mention that the below information shows no instance where any non-plant-made sugars are absorbed in any fashion what-so-ever by marijuana.

The sugars, as stated in this thread, do nothing to actually make any part of the plant "sweeter" or in any way add any sugar-like tastes to the plant from the non-plant-made sugars.

Yes, it's proven beyond any doubt at all that molasses in the right condition will help the plant reach it's most beneficial conditions to uptake nutrients, oxygen and water that will in turn, make the plant come closer to it's full growth capability.

The buds are larger because the plant is growing more efficiently. The buds have more resin because the plant is growing more efficiently.

No parts of the flavors of any added non-plant-made sugars is absorbed by the plant.

As far as I know, no side by side tests following the Scientific Method have been made to prove anything beyond what I've stated above.

If anyone has tests that they can present, I would love to read them.

The tests should include:

1. Proof that the flavor of a substance can be tasted in the plant flowers when smoked. A double blind test would prove this irrevocably. I don't believe that it will.

2. That the flowers are larger as a direct result of the molasses, in that any other type of favorable micro-organism booster wouldn't do exactly the same thing. I believe that a test of this type will show that molasses is just one way of many to do exactly the same thing.

Sorry folks, I still firmly believe that the interest and fascination with using sweeteners in a nutrients solution is mostly a human fondness for sweets.

Yes, certain sweets in the correct form will enhance plant growth.

No, it will not do anything to incorporate a "sweetness" to the flowers that is similar to the sweetness in the sugary additive. The plant will only grow better towards it's natural flavor and size capabilities.

Sorry Hick, I know I said I was staying out of this one, but I couldn't help myself.

 

[massproducer]

Now while Stoney, you know I respect and honour your opinions always, I have to kind of disagree with some of your statements. I have just started using Advanced nutrients, Sweet Leaf and I must say, it is doing everything it said that it would do, while it is not just Molasses, it is a major component. I can not give you any other information other then practical. I was a sceptic and would have never bought this but my hydro guy gave me a 1 liter sample, and it sure is making my flowers smell sweet, almost too sweet.

It somewhat makes sense to me that sugars would help with terpene development as terpenes melucar makeup is C5H8, so 5 carbon molecules and 8 hydrogen, sucrose is carbon-hydrogen and oxygen, so while i am not a scientist it doesn't seem that much of a stretch to me. Also sucrose matches a plants carbohydrate profile exactly, it is a plant-produced sugar, just not that plant. But I will just leave this one alone because I honestly do not know enough about the sweetening side of things.

 

[Tom O'Bedlam]

do u just add the molasses to plain water or to my nutrient water.. i grow in soil ... i am almost ready to start feeding them the nutrient and want to start the molasses at the same time ( experiment) just need to know how often to give it to them and how...... thanks

I have the EXACT same question.

Good thread, btw.

 

[POTUS]

Now while Stoney, you know I respect and honour your opinions always, I have to kind of disagree with some of your statements. I have just started using Advanced nutrients, Sweet Leaf and I must say, it is doing everything it said that it would do, while it is not just Molasses, it is a major component. I can not give you any other information other then practical. I was a sceptic and would have never bought this but my hydro guy gave me a 1 liter sample, and it sure is making my flowers smell sweet, almost too sweet.

It somewhat makes sense to me that sugars would help with terpene development as terpenes melucar makeup is C5H8, so 5 carbon molecules and 8 hydrogen, sucrose is carbon-hydrogen and oxygen, so while i am not a scientist it doesn't seem that much of a stretch to me. Also sucrose matches a plants carbohydrate profile exactly, it is a plant-produced sugar, just not that plant. But I will just leave this one alone because I honestly do not know enough about the sweetening side of things.

We have to remember the difference between the sucrose developed *by* the plant as opposed to sucrose that is *not* developed by the plant. We're discussing the resulting actions of a plant to the addition of sucrose to the plants environment, not the plants handling of the sucrose that it develops in the natural evolution of osmosis.

Semi-permeable membranes are very thin layers of material (cell membranes are semi-permeable) which allow some things to pass through them but prevent other things from passing through.

Cell membranes will allow small molecules like Oxygen, water, Carbon Dioxide, Ammonia, Glucose, amino-acids, etc. to pass through. Cell membranes will not allow larger molecules like Sucrose, Starch, protein, etc. to pass through.

When plant cells are placed in concentrated sugar solutions they lose water by osmosis and they become "flaccid"; this is the exact opposite of "turgid". If you put plant cells into concentrated sugar solutions and look at them under a microscope you would see that the contents of the cells have shrunk and pulled away from the cell wall: they are said to be plasmolysed.

Molasses (average NPK 1-0-5) contains potash, sulfur, and many trace minerals, it can serve as a nutritious soil amendment. Molasses is also an excellent chelating agent.

However, Plasmolysis is the separation of plant cell cytoplasm from the cell wall as a result of water loss. It is unlikely to occur in nature, except in severe conditions. Plasmolysis is induced in the laboratory by immersing a plant cell in a strongly saline or sugary solution, so that water is lost by osmosis.

If onion epidermal tissue is immersed in a solution of calcium nitrate, cells rapidly lose water by osmosis and the protoplasm of the cells shrinks. This occurs because the calcium and nitrate ions freely permeate the cell wall and encounter the selectively permeable plasma membrane.

The large vacuole in the center of the cell originally contains a dilute solution with much lower osmotic pressure than that of the calcium nitrate solution on the other side of the membrane.

The vacuole thus loses water and becomes smaller. The space between the cell membrane and the cell wall enlarges and the plasma membrane and the protoplasm within it contract to the center of the cell. Strands of cytoplasm extend to the cell wall because of plasma membrane-cell wall attachment points. Plasmolysed cells die unless they are transferred quickly from the salt or sugar solution to water.

Thus, any concentration of sucrose into a plants feeding nutrients will detract from the plants growth due to the onset of Plasmolysis and it's results as shown in the example above.

The addition of properly fermented molasses or other sugary substances is an exception in that those fermented substances will not be the active ingredient of the nutrient base, but a substance which accelerates and promotes beneficial microbial action in the root area of a plant.

This beneficial microbial action is what enables the plant to perform it's natural functions to the best of it's ability when the point of maximum nutrient, oxygen and water uptake is approached.

Some of the sources that this information is derived from include:

Dainty, J. (1976) Water relations of plant cells. In Transport in Plants II, Part A, Cells, U. Lüttge and M. G. Pitman, eds. Encyclopedia of Plant Physiology, New Series, Vol. 2. Springer-Verlag, Berlin, pp. 12–35.

Green, P. B. (1968) Growth physics in Nitella: A method for continuous in vivo analysis of extensibility based on a micro-manometer technique for turgor pressure. Plant Physiol. 43: 1169–1184.

Green, P. B., and Stanton, F. W. (1967) Turgor pressure: Direct manometric measurement in single cells of Nitella. Science 155: 1675–1676.

Pickard, W. F. 1983. The ascent of sap in plants. Prog. Biophys. Mol. Biol. 37: 181–229.

Scholander, P. F., Hammel, H. T., Bradstreer, E. D., and Hemmingsen, E. A. (1965) Sap pressure in vascular plants. Science 148: 339–346.

Slavik, B. (1974) Methods of Studying Plant Water Relations. Academia, Prague.

Steudle, E. (1993) Pressure probe techniques: Basic principles and application to studies of water and solute relations at the cell, tissue and organ level. In Water Deficits: Plant Responses from Cell to Community, J. A. C. Smith and H. Griffiths, eds., BIOS Scientific, Oxford, pp. 5–36.

Tyree, M. T. 1976. Negative turgor pressure in plant cells: Fact or fallacy? Can. J. Botany 54: 2738–2746.

 

[POTUS]

For the short version of what I posted in my previous post:

1. Does raw molasses help plants in any way?

NO IT DOES NOT. IT HARMS THEM

2. Will it help my MJ be sweeter or grow larger because I'm putting a sweet substance in it's nutrients?

NO IT WILL NOT. IT WON'T EVEN ABSORB THE STUFF IN IT'S RAW FORM.

3. Has what Stoney is saying been proven through Scientific Method and performed in repeatable testing?

YES

4. Is this argument over using raw molasses getting silly?

YES

5. Has this been discussed enough to dispel rumors and baloney from fact?

YES

6. Is this likely to be brought up again and all of this rehashed over and over?

YES

7. Is this starting to be funny?

hehehe YES

 

[ArtVandolay]

...
I know that if I used that stuff here in the glades, I would have a house full of critters lapping it up and multiplying. Bugs own Florida. I just use a piece of it.

Well said lol. I was picturing the entire southwest Florida crawling and flying bug population taking up residence in my grow box, with the rest of the 2 and 4 legged critters lining up waiting for the garage door to open.

But I am now wondering if corn syrup would have the same effect... surely less smell. And don't call me shirly.

 

[POTUS]

Well said lol. I was picturing the entire southwest Florida crawling and flying bug population taking up residence in my grow box, with the rest of the 2 and 4 legged critters lining up waiting for the garage door to open.

But I am now wondering if corn syrup would have the same effect... surely less smell. And don't call me shirly.

Yes, corn syrup would do the same thing that raw molasses would. It'll either slow down the growth or kill your plants. No, it won't help them.

Yes, the bugs will love it.

 

[massproducer]

I have seen no science. Sucrose is made up of 2 simple sugars one of which you just stated can pass through the cell-membrane, sucrose is fructose and glucose.

Sucrose is sucrose no matter the source it is the same molecule.

It is not just a concentrated solution of sugars that will cause plants to loose water through osmosis, it is any solution that is at a higher concentration then is present in the roots. This actually most happens with saline solution from excess salt build up because of insoluble nutrients.

All organic matter must be broken down in order to become availible to the plants, so with an unstable sucrose molecule cantaining carbon, hydrogen and oxygen i would say it is silly to think that some of the original organic sucrose could not be broken down into hydrocarbons.

You go from talking of a concentrated molasses solution to all the sudden detucting that any concentration will damage the plants cells. A concentrated solution of anything, salts or sugars is called hypertonic, as I already stated. You encounter Plasmolysis ONLY with a hypertonic solution. This has nothing to do with Molasses, and all to do with the strength of any type of soluble solution that would come in contact with the roots.

Proteins, fats/lipids and carbohydrates are all the organic building blocks to inorganic nutrients, but they must be broken down first as roots can not uptake organic matter. The fungi and microbes must break the molecular bond and free the inorganic compounds.

I do not know exactly what sucrose gets broken down to in finality, i have been able to find no information about this matter. You have not provided any new information by your posting calling my theories silly, you just infact reinforced what I said about hypertonic solutions, so thank you. But like me, I don't think it is possible for you to say all of the possible compound that will be created by the decomposition of sucrose, until you know this then there is absolutly no way that you can tell me that sucrose does not get broken down into compounds that would affect terpene levels. Can you tell me the precoursors to terpene development? That fact is that your entire arguement is centered around a hypertonic solution, no one is talking about feeding in concentrations that would become hypertonic, also it would be easier to lose water through osmosis in a saline solution, then it would in a carbohydrate solution, for the simple reason that your plants roots mainly consist of carbohydrates, in order for the solution to become hypertonic the concentration would have to be higher then the concentration in the roots.

So if me thinking that a molecule containing carbon, hydrogen and oxygen could be broken down into smaller molecules containing carbon and hydrogen, or hydrocarbons is silly, then bro your entire post was totally irrelevent.

As i already stated 3 times now, it is not about can sucrose be absorbed, because it probably can't based on the fact that it is organic, but because it is organic and it is going to be broken down, it is more about, what elements or compounds are created from this decomposition process. Is one of these compounds hydrocarbon, which is a very real possiblity. Because it is a fact that terpenes which contain the essential oils or smells within the plant are comprised of hydrocarbons. Because you do not agree with something or see the logic in something does not make it silly, in fact if you opposing something in which you do not really understand, that too me is silly.

Honestly stoney i normally love to debate issue with you because I often understand your point of view, but this time seems like one of those times that it is really not going to be worth it. You are not reading the information that I am providing or something, because your arguement was based on something that I already explained. Hypotonic, hypertonic and Isotonic

Have you ever used something like sweetleaf from Advanced Nutrients? If not then once again I think it is nieve to discredit something that others swear by. Here is something that you could do, go out and buy some sweetleaf and use it for a few weeks and you tell me if you notice any differences, you have absolutly no worries because advanced has a no questions asked return policy, you can even bring in the empty bottle and your recipt and say I just didn't like it. I have yet to hear any one bringing it back.

 

[massproducer]

Corn starch and Blackstrap molasses are totally differnt things structurally. Corn syrup is made from corn starch and contains mainly glucose, not sucrose. It also does not have the same nutirent profiles as as blackstrap molasses does.

Cornstarch is made by exposing corn starch to enzymes to convert some of the starch to glucose. Molasses is an extract from sugar cane or sugar beets, mainly sugar cane. After 3 boils of the molasses you have blackstrap molasses, which is the most nutritious.

 

[Mr.Wakenbake]

Unsulphured Black strap molasses, has been used by gardeners of many different types of plants for many years.

However there are some things that can and cannot be expected with it.

IT will not,

Make buds sweeter, produce more resin, or THC whatever myth is now floating around.

It will, make a great addition to a feeding program that is lacking in micronutrients. Also added to a tea or nutrient solution that is bubbled to increasse microbe populations that are beneficial to your plants.

I haven't heard the same about corn syrup, but you never know.

I use it during flowering. And in small amounts. But do i notice much of a difference in the finished product. Not really.

I haven't done comparison grows but it sure didn't HURT my plants. By any means. DID it help? I can't say, but i haven't anything to compare the results to except the grow before it and it wasn't fully organic. so... apples and oranges. ANyways, just my 2 cents.