Diy/ Agramover

[HelioCenturion]

Hey, I have the option of customizing a grow tent for a 20'x 24' room... Im going to build a 15'x 20' grow tent (dimensions are subject to change) and I have recently been researching Light Rails, and Agramovers (which are just "industrial" strength Light Rails)...
I have discovered that since theyre a relatively "new" concept, that there's not too terribly much information out there.... Aside from distributors touting their efficacy, and relative science behind them.. I have found few testimonials...
The way that I understand it (thus far) is that the moving light subsidizes the use of more stationary lights by covering a larger area with essentially the same amount of PAR, and distributing lumens equally (though not constantly) across the canopy... thus allowing you to have fewer lights, more plants, in a larger area... (I know you cant substitute the amount of lights by THAT much by having them be mobile) but there in lies my dilemma.... HOW MUCH?
I have not been able to find any templates, or real guidelines on setting up mobile lighting to absolute efficiency/ efficacy...
I hae heard a few say that if you increase the light spaca/ footprint 2fold (from 4x4 to 4x8) that your outer plants may suffer, and not recieve as much light...

I am making a custom Grow Tent (from wholesale material/ + PVC) so the dimensions are up to me... and Im trying to grow 75 plants with 6 1000W MH/HPS (and 2000W CFL equally distributed throughout)

My question is... how much running space can I get out of each light (which will ultimately solidify my tent dimensions) I have thought of two configurations that might work... but really I am worried that I dont have enough light...

120,000Φv x 6 = 720,000 Φv / 75 plants = 9600Φv per plant
720,000Φv / 300(2) (15' x 20') = 2400Φv per ft(2)....

(I realize that measuring luminous flux Φv{Lumens} and
luminous intensity Iv {Candelas}
is not the most accurate way to measure the amount light waves emitted... but its a helpful template to reference the amount of µmol you obtain through PAR)

So with 6 stationary lights, staggered throughout my grow area I will produce 720,000Φv which is 7200Φv per meter(2) without (reflectors/ supplementals)
which is pushing it....
So in short... Im just wondering the overall distributable efficacy of making my lights mobile (i.e how long can I make my tracks without losing light on a specific are of my plant??)

I can either do it this way or this way
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Any knowledge or suggestions would be greatly appreciated
Thanks

 

[pcduck]

Forget the light rail and just buy more lights.

The only thing positive about a light rail is your plants do not lean towards the lights. When I used mine, I had a 6' travel rail and used about 12" of it with 2 lights on one rail.

 

[johnnylongjohns]

Why not just grow in the room? Making it sorta complicated, when it does not need all that stuff. I could partition up that room in a fraction of the time with a better end result.

 

[4u2sm0ke]

:48:

 

[The Hemp Goddess]

Yes, you are really underlit, but using light rails won't make up for an underlit situation. I have 2 of them gathering dust in a storeroom because they simply do not work well. It just does not work trying to stretch your light to do more. If you have 720,000 lumens, you have enough light for a 12' x 12' (flowering) space, max.

I also do not see the benefit of using CFLs with MH and HPS. The CFLs have to be extremely close to the plants (within inches) to do any good. When you get the CFLs close enough, you end up shading the HID light.

 

[HelioCenturion]

Why not just grow in the room? Making it sorta complicated, when it does not need all that stuff. I could partition up that room in a fraction of the time with a better end result.

I need to have a microclimate because the garage itself is going to be my cold air intake... and to just partition: theres still rafters and joists "exposed" in the ceiling, so I would have to build a "box" any way you slice it... (Id rather just build one out of PVC so then I can make it customizable)

Yes, you are really underlit, but using light rails won't make up for an underlit situation. I have 2 of them gathering dust in a storeroom because they simply do not work well. It just does not work trying to stretch your light to do more. If you have 720,000 lumens, you have enough light for a 12' x 12' (flowering) space, max.

Yeah the dimensions I put up at first were just the first two numbers that came to my head while writing... although its not waaaay too big, for what Im thinking... as you pointed out .... Its too big.... but the dimesnsions are up to me, so I think Im going to make it either 18X8 12X12 (as you said) or push it and go 16X10.... Im going to have 75 plants, and 6 lights, so I want to split it up into 3 areas inside of one larger one, so it will be more manageable...

I also do not see the benefit of using CFLs with MH and HPS. The CFLs have to be extremely close to the plants (within inches) to do any good. When you get the CFLs close enough, you end up shading the HID light.

Hopefully the picture loaded worked... just a quick draw in paint... but im going to use a DIY light rail with the CFLs so they are (like you said) close, and dont impede on the light produced by my HID's

hXXp://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc162/StuntShine420/Light%20Build/IMAGE_146.jpg

 

[The Hemp Goddess]

IMO, the CFLs are still going to be of very limited benefit. You would be way better off using those 2000W with HID lights. First of all, the HID will put out twice as many lumens per watt as the CFLs. Second, you could use the lumens and the better penetration of the HIDs.

I still don't see how you are going to get the CFLs close (a couple of inches from the canopy) and not shade the plants from the light from the HIDs which are going to have to be mounted further away.

Again, I encourage you not to waste money on light movers.

 

[nouvellechef]

Your way over thinking it man. Take it from me. I used to grow on a scale that would terrify most. The less overhead you have into it and the cheaper the opening costs(set-up) are, the less it takes for you to break even, then make a profit. Since you said you have a backer, that's another piece of overhead.

Just make the space and buy the minimum needed.

Hoods
Bulbs
Fans
Insulated duct
Lighting controller
Pots
Nutrients
Cloning supplies(I like tomato kits w/heat pad and rapid rooters)

All the rest can be gotten if really needed. Just focus your attention on net cost per gram yielded. I get that WA is about to blowup, if your gonna be the front runner, maintaining a super healthy crop is gonna be the key.

 

[Hushpuppy]

I wish my buddy was on this forum so that he could tell you what he told me just a few hours ago. He had a set up with HIDs in the middle with CFLs around the outsides of them for extra lumens and higher frequency. He told me that while he was getting decent results, he wasn't satisfied. So he took down the CFLs and put up a second HID and "after only 3 days, the growth difference was stunning". He told me that he figured out that the CFL light was a waste of energy because the second HID used no more watts than the CFLs but made a "HUGE difference" to his growth. He said from now on the CFLs stay in the veg space and the HIDs are all in the flowering space.

MY opinion is this: if you are wanting to get serious about growing a quality cash crop, then you need to get at least 3 tents (I love the secret jardin dark room tents. They come completely ready to grow in them. They are relatively easy to set up, and they have all of the venting connections needed, and are totally reflective, and hold temps well). I would get 2 4x8 tents and 1 4x4 tent for starters. Use 3 600w HPS lights in each of the 4x8 tents, daisy chained together with 6" flex hose connected to a 6" vortex fan for each tent. Then get 2 8bulb 4' florescent grow lights for the 4x4 tent for vegging plants. You will need also need vortex fan for the veg tent to remove heat and pull in fresh air.

Take a long look at discount-hydro.com as they are in Cali and have pretty much everything you need shipped right to your door.

PS. I tried the light rails and modified them several times. My final modification that worked the very best was to take them down and install another light. Don't waste your money Dude, they just aren't necessary.

 

[HelioCenturion]

Your way over thinking it man. Take it from me. I used to grow on a scale that would terrify most. The less overhead you have into it and the cheaper the opening costs(set-up) are, the less it takes for you to break even, then make a profit. Since you said you have a backer, that's another piece of overhead.

Just make the space and buy the minimum needed.

Hoods
Bulbs
Fans
Insulated duct
Lighting controller
Pots
Nutrients
Cloning supplies(I like tomato kits w/heat pad and rapid rooters)

All the rest can be gotten if really needed. Just focus your attention on net cost per gram yielded. I get that WA is about to blowup, if your gonna be the front runner, maintaining a super healthy crop is gonna be the key.

I appreciate what you said nouvelle... I am not "personally" trying to be the Front Runner for the Washington "Branch" of the industry... maybe I've over-purported my intentions, but I am acting as the "Forum Emissary" for our group, trying to obtain information...
If it were up to me, Id take 4 HID's and taper that room off with black poly, in a 6X6 configuration with 40 plants (and the checklist above) and keep it as simple as possible, while I fully immersed myself in horticulture, and gained experience... I realize that the minimalistic approach is more sensible, and ultimately more successful. But when working in a group, in a community forum mindset... Ideas tend to run rampant... and get inflated (possibly out of proportion). And if you're not the one making all the ultimate monetary contributions (and thus decisions) then you kinda gotta take the things your given, and work with what you've got... (and who am I to stint creativity)

Let me get this straight tho..... I DO NOT WANT LIGHT RAILS
but my group does... I have tried to stress the importance of keeping things simple.... (more products, more problems) but unfortunately my group thinks (MORE PRODUCTS = MORE PRODUCTION)
so I have to come up with the most productive way to utilize these factors, to produce something worthwhile...
I also have the most time to tinker with these things since I have 4 1/2 months till I have Fishing... so being the "Engineer"/ PR Rep for the group, Ill have time to take the materials (theyre already set on) and construct the best grow op I can... All the info is out there (and on here) and Im just trying to get the most accurate, and informed picture (about each topic that comes up) so that I can move forward with fully developed idea, and not go off half cocked..

Although I dont really believe in the touted efficacy of Light Movers, my group saw one Ed Rosenthal video. and lost their minds ...
Im not as easily sold, and dont really buy into hype... Also a fan of logic myself.. and that tells me: that focused intensity is more penetrating and enriching, than wandering intensity... and that the lights have a specific (tested) intensity..
Although (for the most part) this site seems to have an aversion to them (and the idea all together)
... there are people out there that have them, and absolutely love them...
They SAY that they have seen the results, and are satisfied with the investment, but haven't as of yet, been able to say "How" or "Why" it works..
Ive learned the ways that you can get an even distribution of light, and some say that by having them, you can increase your grow room from 4X4 to 4X6 (4X8's the absolute line where you lose light) I have heard that by having them (supplementing 2 lights or compensation of the same area) your individual "Bud Size" decreases, but the yield size increases slightly.. By providing light, closer to the canopy, and penetrating lower down, to produce more bud sites... Ive heard that a major drawback, is that they more evenly distribute the light (vs intensely) and that makes flowering times much longer (which would seem to me to indicate inefficiency) but a few guys say they had 2 1Ks, and after a while switched to one on a light rail because that did the job as good in a small area as the 2... one guy says 120% - 140% increase in actual light (by penetration, and equal distribution) and another few say 10-15% increase in over all yield... and my favorites just say...."theyre ****... dont buy one... (everyone else is wrong
Simple fact of the matter is... plants like light... they like it A LOT.. they like a LOT of light... and if you give them enough... they dont really care if its from a "sprinkler".... or a "fire hose"
Thanks for the responses.... All info, is ALWAYS appreciated

 

[HelioCenturion]

IMO, the CFLs are still going to be of very limited benefit. You would be way better off using those 2000W with HID lights. First of all, the HID will put out twice as many lumens per watt as the CFLs. Second, you could use the lumens and the better penetration of the HIDs.

I still don't see how you are going to get the CFLs close (a couple of inches from the canopy) and not shade the plants from the light from the HIDs which are going to have to be mounted further away.

Again, I encourage you not to waste money on light movers.

Hey... I dont really understand how CFLs are going to be limited... maybe you dont understand what I intend to ... but I posted the URL of the DIY light "Array" in my post... If I build a square perimeter (Say.. 5'5") of PVC around my (5' 1 and a 1/2" because of coupling length) rows of 5X5 plants... I dont see how it wouldnt be at least a little effective... the lights would be plant level (6"-12" off the ground) ... and depending on whether I decided to put them on pulleys, or construct little "legs" (more PVC and 3 way "knuckles) to raise them up, they could grow with the plant...

16 40W CFL's per each 25 plants = 42,240&#934;v (66&#934;v per watt)
X 3 =126,720&#934;v ... not to mention that 48 40W bulbs @ 4$ a piece are $192..
where as another single light (with a comparable output) would @ least cost $250 (with the bulb, hood, and extra ballast not to mention the power drain)..
I dont really know how they couldnt make a difference... I see tons of people solely grow (their entire crop) with them because thats all they can afford..
So maybe Im missing somethin ?)

 

[HelioCenturion]

I wish my buddy was on this forum so that he could tell you what he told me just a few hours ago. He had a set up with HIDs in the middle with CFLs around the outsides of them for extra lumens and higher frequency. He told me that while he was getting decent results, he wasn't satisfied. So he took down the CFLs and put up a second HID and "after only 3 days, the growth difference was stunning". He told me that he figured out that the CFL light was a waste of energy because the second HID used no more watts than the CFLs but made a "HUGE difference" to his growth. He said from now on the CFLs stay in the veg space and the HIDs are all in the flowering space.

Hey... thanks for the reply.... how far away were the CFLs (Watts? Color Temps?)

MY opinion is this: if you are wanting to get serious about growing a quality cash crop, then you need to get at least 3 tents (I love the secret jardin dark room tents.

I just checked em out, and theyre $1500 Bones... Ive got the tent now under $800 going with wholesale stuff... I appreciate the info, but Im not really worried about the tents (I think that will be the fun part of the project)... I think I could make a "Mech Warrior" with enough PVC attachements

I would get 2 4x8 tents and 1 4x4 tent for starters. Use 3 600w HPS lights in each of the 4x8 tents, daisy chained together with 6" flex hose connected to a 6" vortex fan for each tent. Then get 2 8bulb 4' florescent grow lights for the 4x4 tent for vegging plants. You will need also need vortex fan for the veg tent to remove heat and pull in fresh air.

thats funny that you say 3 tents with 3 HIDs in (the two bigger ones) because we had that Idea from the beginning. we were even thinking 4 (of varying sizes) then we deoted to 3, and are finally ending up with one... (maybe deconstructing later into multiples) 3 tents, and 3 light packages are BUKU bucks.... when reality hits, it usually fights dirty

My final modification that worked the very best was to take them down and install another light. Don't waste your money Dude, they just aren't necessary.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA thanks man... Im showing that to my buddies as the discussion ender
awesome

 

[nouvellechef]

Gotcha. Well tell your group to look at my pictures, then multiple that by however many square feet you have. I have only what's listed above, but get the most out of each light I can. Now that's success in my book

 

[Growdude]

Hey... I dont really understand how CFLs are going to be limited...

16 40W CFL's per each 25 plants = 42,240&#934;v (66&#934;v per watt)
X 3 =126,720&#934;v ... not to mention that 48 40W bulbs @ 4$ a piece are $192..
where as another single light (with a comparable output) would @ least cost $250 (with the bulb, hood, and extra ballast not to mention the power drain)..
I dont really know how they couldnt make a difference...

16, 40WATT CFL's will put out about half as many lumens as a 600 watt HPS
They also will use more power than the HPS by around 40 watts.
They also will put out alot more heat with no easy way to vent it.

Dont forget to price sockets and cords for the CFL setup.

But the real problem is side lighting does not work well, esp CFL as its only going to "see" the outside edge of the outermost plants.

Put more thought/money into into your HID reflector hoods can have a huge difference in the light "footprint" vs light rails.

 

[HelioCenturion]

16, 40WATT CFL's will put out about half as many lumens as a 600 watt HPS

They also will use more power than the HPS by around 40 watts.

I was under the impression tho, that although Im distributing more power throughout with CFL's (that are self ballasted) its more cost effective than 2 600's or 1 1K that Id have to get Ballasts for??

They also will put out alot more heat with no easy way to vent it.

REALLY?? I thought CFL's were next to LCD's with the least amount of heat emission... I must've been just straight wrong

But the real problem is side lighting does not work well, esp CFL as its only going to "see" the outside edge of the outermost plants.

Damn... thats a good point... I was thinking that I could structure the plants, aso that the CFL's would have a deeper penetration, but yeah seeming less realistic all the time

Put more thought/money into into your HID reflector hoods can have a huge difference in the light "footprint" vs light rails.

Thanks man, I appreciate it... If i can get them to drop the "light rails" and we drop the CFL's, I should be able to procure a couple of decent 600W packages... weve already got our HID's with Radiant 8" reflectors... thoughts??
thanks for your input

 

[DrFever]

Forget the light rail and just buy more lights.

The only thing positive about a light rail is your plants do not lean towards the lights. When I used mine, I had a 6' travel rail and used about 12" of it with 2 lights on one rail.

Yea 12,000 watts would be min

 

[Hushpuppy]

Hey... thanks for the reply.... how far away were the CFLs (Watts? Color Temps?)
Please don't get me wrong here. I am not trying to convince you to do or buy anything that you don't want. I am just giving you my experiences for you to have as much information to (thoroughly confuseyou :hubba: ) give you options. His CFL lights were/are the big 150w 6500K and 3000K that you can buy from Lowes. I think he said he had 4 of them set up around the perimeter of his HID fixture so that one didn't block the other. Not to sound redundant on information you may already know, but the energy that plants need and use is in the photons of light that are emitted from the source. In florescent lights, you can get very tight color rendering but there isn't a lot of lumens(light energy) produced. Also this energy isn't being driven as hard to flow out from the source. By design, florescents "glow" rather than beam out light. That is why street lights aren't made from floros. HID lights produce a lot of light energy per watt of electricity AND they drive it really hard so that the energy in the photons is carried farther before dissapating. The CFLs will certainly work for your operation as they work for vegging plants, as they worked for my buddy's op, but like him, I suspect that inside of a year you will be replacing them with HIDs, and I'd hate to see you waste your money and efforts as so many here(me included) have done.


I just checked em out, and theyre $1500 Bones... Ive got the tent now under $800 going with wholesale stuff... I appreciate the info, but Im not really worried about the tents (I think that will be the fun part of the project)... I think I could make a "Mech Warrior" with enough PVC attachements
I understand what you are saying. They ain't cheap by any stretch. I used to think like you when I first started my grow. I am from a long line of carpenders and I built all of my stuff myself. Then when I got tired of modifying to fit and match what I needed to do, I decided to check out a tent and bought this one: hxxp://www.ebay.com/itm/Secret-Jardin-DarkRoom-II-DR150-5x5-Grow-Tent-60-x-60-x-80-/320892034778?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab6a7deda I can grow a pound of bud in one 5x5 tent with 2 600w HPS lights and I haven't perfected it yet. What I love so much about them is they are already set up with the strong zippered doors, top and bottom air/whatever hose/chord drawstring sleeves that allow you to access the tent without leaving openings for errant light and uncontrolled air movement. They are waterproof and will hold at least 10gallons of water (spilled from a hydro system that I forgot to securely set up to prevent leakage :doh: ). They can be easily moved and adjusted and are very air and light tight. But if you have the skills and desire to build your own and can save a few bucks, I can't fault you for that.

thats funny that you say 3 tents with 3 HIDs in (the two bigger ones) because we had that Idea from the beginning. we were even thinking 4 (of varying sizes) then we deoted to 3, and are finally ending up with one... (maybe deconstructing later into multiples) 3 tents, and 3 light packages are BUKU bucks.... when reality hits, it usually fights dirty
I started with one tent then used the money that I made off my first harvest to buy 2 more tents and lights. I stand by the idea of having multiple rooms for flowering as opposed to one large room. the biggest reason is that it takes several weeks at least for vegging plants to get ready for the flowering stage, then the flowering stage will take at least 8weeks for some strains and longer for others. If you have all of your plants in one space then you are waiting for 8+ weeks for them to flower, then there is a back breaking marathon of harvesting multiple pounds of bud that then has to be dried and cured(for which you will need a space)(Unless you intend to do this as a continual or perpetual harvest, which would have to be done as single unit plants rather than a hydro system) If this is broken into smaller rooms then multiple strains can be grown without overlap of plant phenotype, nutrient difference, strain confusion, transmitting disease or bugs that can wipe out a whole grow, or the ever possible male/hermy intrusion to seed up an otherwise beautiful set of buds. For me it is easier to maintain 3 different flowering spaces, and it has 3 groups of plants being harvested every 3-4 weeks as each tent is planted 3 weeks apart. This way I am constantly pulling about a pound every 3 weeks which allows enough time for the drying cabinet to be used and emptied, and vegging clones to be readied for the next available tent.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA thanks man... Im showing that to my buddies as the discussion ender
awesome

Again, I am not trying to tell you how to do your grow, but at the same time, I am trying to convince you do do it a tried and true way, but ultimately it is up to you how to proceed. Good luck and green mojo for your venture. It is absolutely the most gruelling and tough job that I have ever absolutely loved doing If you have any questions about the way I do stuff, you are welcome to private message me or ask on the open page

 

[The Hemp Goddess]

Basically, CFLs put out about 62 lumens per watt, T5s and MH put out about 92 lumens per watt, and HPS vary from about 100 lumens per watt to over 150, with the smaller HPS being the least efficient. So it takes 2-3 times as many watts of CFL light to give you the same lumens that you get from a HPS. This creates more heat and requires more electricity, plus the penetration of CFLs is not good. The 2000W of CFL you propose will emit approx 124,000 lumens of low penetrating light. A single 1000W HPS will emit 150,000-155,000 lumens. CFLs are the least effective lights of all the lights used to grow.