Non-cannabis ‘Vape Juice’?

Discussion in 'Coffee Table' started by oldfogey8, Sep 26, 2019.

  1. Sep 26, 2019 #1

    oldfogey8

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    One of my kids knows it all. He vapes but not cannabis. Our state pretty much put a moratorium on vape products due to safety concerns for the next 4 months which doesn’t affect me nor probably him. I have been trying to find ‘vape juice’ that does not contain the VG or PG(vegetable glycerin and Propylene Glycol if memory serves). Pretty much stumped. The NIH has done a study on mice that found both chemical alter the circadian molecular clock gene of lungs,liver, kidneys, brain, etc. Do reputable manufacturers of cannabis vaping products us VG and PG? If not, what do they use to produce the vapor? I’d like to maybe make some safer vape juice for him before he and my wife have a total blowout or before he winds up damaging his lungs...
    Thanks in advance...
    Should have stopped at one kid...
     
  2. Sep 26, 2019 #2

    The Hemp Goddess

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    I think the real problem is that we don't really know what IS safe. No common factor has been found. Even if something is not VG or PG does not necessarily make the alternative safe. Buying from a dispensary does not guarantee that it is safe. Not all the carts have been black-market.
     
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  3. Sep 26, 2019 #3

    Keef

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    Outta luck on an alternative to PG or VG -- They are vaporized not combusted -- Which means they do not break down into other chemicals as they are vaporized -- I used one for over 5 years and need to get off tobacco and back on an e-cig !-- When I first started I used a juice with a PG base and developed a smokers cough and I had never had one on cigarettes -- I quit and went back to smoking-- I was talked into trying a VG base -- I had no problem and would still be on one but my life got turned up side down and I haven't got everything worked out yet -- Using a nicotine juice with VG was much healthier than smoking !
    A THC/CBD cartridge is made from Rosen Press oil or other solventless extraction process such as CO2 -- Some will add a tiny amount of terpenes to help the hash oil flow better in the cartridges-- The vapor is vaporized hash oil !
    It is unethical outlaw producers that are adding synthetic THC and even fentanyl !-- Best to make it yourself !
     
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  4. Sep 26, 2019 #4

    oldfogey8

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    The study found that the damage to the circadian molecular clock gene was found with both the combo of VG and PG and each alone(100% VG or PG). He says he researches the cartridges and refills he buys but I think if he has researched them, his research is suspect(or he is trying to find evidence supporting his hypothesis rather than being objective). This is the same kid who thought kratom was no big deal. He doesn’t want THC/CBD cartridges all the time. He likes his nicotine too and at a time of his choosing. I was hoping for a safe carrier(if that is the right term for VG and PG) so I could make something for him myself. Thanks for the feedback.
     
  5. Sep 26, 2019 #5

    The Hemp Goddess

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    I think everyone is wanting a safe carrier. Most concentrates are simply too thick to use in a vape cartridge without being thinned with something. But not knowing what it is that is doing damage to the lungs and killing people makes me personally want to stay away from it all until they figure this out.
     
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  6. Sep 27, 2019 #6

    oldfogey8

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    Agreed. I am sure a safe carrier would be a billion dollar invention. To bad my biological chemistry knowledge is little to none...
     
  7. Sep 27, 2019 #7

    Aksarben

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    What @Keef said above. Vegetable Glycerine (aka chemically aka Glycerol) is a part of the alcohol grouping, in fact it occurs naturally in wine fermentation of grapes, and contributes to mouth feel in wine. Used in food, such as cookies and has a 60% sweetness (taste) to sugar. So ingesting is not an issue as it is used all over in the food industry GRAS. It can break down to some undesirable chemicals if heated to combustion, but here is the key. Vaporizer pen batteries/cartridges should (SHOULD) keep the temps below combustion, and as such should not cause health issues in vaping, as @Keef had pointed out that he had used it without issues.

    THC/CBD concentrates, whether from pressing, CO2 extraction, etc., are too thick for the ceramic wicks in vaping cartridges to work proper, so some type to thinnning agent is generally used to lower the viscosity. I have one at home (I'm at work at the moment) that is Terpene based and will look when I get home. I have read online and studied a bit about it as I have empty cartridges, and don't want to use any additive that has an issues with high temps. Key point is to to get it hot enough to create vapor but not so hot as to go past the vapor point and get close to combustion or that temperature that changes the chemistry of that which is inhaled. You want the cartridge to get hot enough to not only vaporize the THC/CBD and turn it from THCa or CBDa (if you are using fresh pressed flower concentrate) or to decarboxylate the concentrate before you load it in your cartridge (preferred) and that is fairly easy to do, just heat and temp without getting too hot to drive off Terpenes and such. Ardent Nova decarboxylator can do that pretty easy as it is all electronic controlled temps. It can be done on a hot plate that brings the concentrate, in some kind of heat proof glass container - such as a Pyrex 100ml beaker - and do convert the THCa to THC. Granted , the pen is supposed to do that, but this just guarantees that the concentrate has all (or mostly) been converted before loading into a cartridge. While it's hot is an excellent time to add some Terpene based thinner (NOT much) to the concentrate and stir to mix in . Put into cartridges in it's fairly hot state will make it a lot easier as well. Clycerol (Glycerine) could be used, but in very small amount, and has a higher flash point than does something like ethyl alcohol which is very volatile and can change to formaldehyde if heated to high. You don't want to use EtOH (ethyl alcohol).
    Link to explain a bit about Glycerine .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycerol
    Hope this helps!
     
  8. Sep 27, 2019 #8

    oldfogey8

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    Ingesting is totally different than inhaling. I can drink water but if I inhale it, I am liable to drown. The study I read said that VG and PG both damaged the circadian clock gene, not just PG. I have seen posts in forums where people say they have exhaled VG vapor onto a surface and the surface would feel oily. That cannot be good for the alveoli(sp?) in the lungs. I am not interested in THC or CBD vaping. I was asking if there is an alternative carrier or solvent so that I could make some safe vape juice.
     
  9. Sep 27, 2019 #9

    The Hemp Goddess

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    Oldfogey, the problem is that no one knows what is safe and what is not. No one, not the CDC, not the doctors working with these patients, no one knows what is causing the disease and deaths. No one anywhere. No one know what the "bad" ingredient is. So, while someone may suggest something that they think is safe, it doesn't mean that it is safe. No one knows. I truly cannot imagine anyone who wants to continue vaping when there is some kind of unknown that is causing sickness and death.
     
  10. Sep 27, 2019 #10

    oldfogey8

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    Yep. I understand that but as a dad, I want to do what I can. Asking around is part of that.
     
  11. Sep 27, 2019 #11

    Aksarben

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    Interesting that you mention that. Glycerine aka Glycerol is not an oil, or fat. Neither is Cholesterol, but many assume and place it in the "fat" category. Cholesterol is a metabolic alcohol, and your body needs it so much so, that your liver will manufacture it if you don't consume enough. Chemicals that end in " ol" are part of the alcohol group... Ethanol, Methanol, Glycerol... etc
    One thing they HAVE found in some of these dangerous cartridges that should not be there is Vitamin E Acetate. You don't want to vape that at all. It's a thickening agent. Black market is interested in volume, not quality. Dilute the extract with enough VG and you increase volume, but it will be too thin, and not look right. Hence, here Comes Vitamin E Acetate to the mix to thicken it. BTW, Vitamin E Acetate IS an oil.


    JUUL is getting in dutch because of the flavorings added to it's e-cigarettes. It's attractive to children.

    Glycerol is not an oil.
     
  12. Sep 27, 2019 #12

    oldfogey8

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    Again, what you seem to be missing is that the NIH study found that VG and PG(without any additives) are damaging lung, heart, brain, liver and kidney cells. I don’t care about THC, CBD, vitamin E or any of the other chemicals at this point. I asked if there was a safe replacement since he is going to vape regardless(people smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol even knowing the long term effects). The tangents are not needed to help me find a safer alternative so I can try to save his lung tissue long term. What I glean from the replies, boiled down, is ‘no, there is no replacement’...
     
  13. Sep 27, 2019 #13

    Keef

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    No there are only the 2 bases !-- I found that I felt healthier using an e-cig with VG over smoking -- That is the only thing I have to add !-- Given the choice of the 2 smoking or vaping -- I chose vaping -- It may have it's unknowns but cigarettes got plenty of knowns that are not so good !
     
  14. Sep 27, 2019 #14

    oldfogey8

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    Thx. That is what I have found from the reading I have done. I think the ‘popcorn lung’ folks are the people you see exhaling a human sized cloud of vapor and my son isn’t like that. He still works out and runs. I was just hoping there was something safer.
     
  15. Sep 28, 2019 #15

    The Hemp Goddess

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    No, many of the people stricken with this lung thing are young healthy adults with no known prior problems. And you are just assuming that they are the ones exhaling a super sized cloud--there is no evidence of that. The medical community is dealing with a mystery disease that is killing people. The only common denominator is vaping. I, personally, would encourage anyone I care about not to vape until something is figured out. ****, I'd even discourage those I don't care about not to vape.
     
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  16. Sep 28, 2019 #16

    Aksarben

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    Some info I have read is that there is a relation between the pen/battery and the cartridge, which creates the proper temp for vaping. Ohms laws on electricity and heat. Key is to have the cartridge heat up just enough to produce the vapor, but not so hot as to go into the temperatures that are close to the flash point of those carriers.

    I have stopped with the battery/pen/ cartridge affair pretty much and use a PAX 3 herbal vaporizer, where I can set the temp with my phone via blue-tooth (or manually on the device itself). Right now it's set at 385 F. What I am wondering is if you can use the PAX 3 and instead of using marijuana, concentrate (it has a special insert for that) or hemp(CBD) if you could use tobacco, and I mean a good quality organic tobacco? I've seen cigarettes I think come from a Tribal business, with a picture of an Indian Chief on the package.

    Can tobacco be vaped like I do my weed? If so, you can dial in the right temp, won't overheat it to the point of burning that creates carcinogens, and still get the nicotine. With that you don't have carriers like PG or VG, just pure herbal.
     
  17. Sep 28, 2019 #17

    oldfogey8

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    Tried that. As I said you n my original post, he knows it all. I left out that he is as stubborn as they come and if all else fails, he is good at saying what I want to hear then doing what he wants to do. The fentanyl and hydrogen cyanide I am reading about are really scary. Thanks for everyone’s input and sorry if I came off like a jerk on several replies. I am just not myself lately...
     
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  18. Sep 28, 2019 #18

    2RedEyes

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    Kids can be like that...bout all you can do is help them know the facts...like have him read the words “fentanyl and hydrogen cyanide”... that would be enough to scare the crap outa me...but...
     
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  19. Sep 28, 2019 #19

    oldfogey8

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    He is the one who originally told me and my wife about the fentanyl and cyanide. Exactly. But. I knew it all when I was his age. I have since forgotten just about everything it seems.
     
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