just cant diagnose this one...anyone?

[saycheese]

HP
i gave them 7 litres of water with 1ml per litre of hygrozyme.

by drench i meant just really wet with slight runoff.
wouldnt call it a flush - the runoff amounted to 200ml or less i poured it from tray to measuring jug to test the ph

tips on new growth a bit pale still even though new growth in general looks darker and healthier, only like a millimetre of tip at most is affected, is this nute burn? when its on tips of newest growth. its more white/beige looking

ive put the lights to 12/12 now so ive committed, hope it dosent backfire
ive read up on the genetics but couldnt find a definative answer on whether this liberty haze is an easy or hard plant to grow ( compared to buddha cheese which seems to handle a lot )

considering ive just given straight water, next time i water should i still flush properly, or just a normal amount plain water with a little runoff?

 

[TwoHighCrimes]

Most organic tea growers never worry about the PH of the teas.
But i do adjust it every 8-10hrs to suit the beneficials as these microbes prefer Ph6.0-7.5 in nature and one tends to think that any beneficials outside these ideals could also contain bad bacteria that may also prefer acidic or alkaline avenues so for me i keep it around neutral. You will get crazy readings and such. In organics the root system has a protective layer... It protects it from the PH swings as the microbial life breaks the tea down to usuable food source for the plant. People that are new to organics have the hardest time wrapping there head around one thing. "You are feeding the soil NOT the plant" the plant is the byproduct of maintaining the soil.
Water temperature – higher temperatures increase the rate of multiplication of bacteria and growth of fungi, which can speed up the brewing process. At the same time, warmer water holds less oxygen. Water that is too warm therefore, can cause the available (dissolved) oxygen to be used up too fast, which will cause an anaerobic condition. (Anaerobic conditions result in the production of plant toxic compounds.)
Water quality - the optimal range of pH for compost tea production is between 6.5 and 7.5. Also, water treated with chlorine or chloramines should be de-chlorinated before use in the brewer. The amount and types of microbial foods added to the brewer – if too much nutrient, especially nutrients high in sucrose ( molasses) added to the brewer, microbial growth will outstrip the supply of oxygen, again causing an anaerobic condition in the compost tea. If too little nutrient is added, a ‘weak’ compost tea will be the result.
Yet i use a larger airpump to ensure that the tea is almost bubbling out of my bucket and ensure maximum oxygen at all times !
Brewing time – there is an optimum time period for brewing compost/worm tea. Too short a brew time will result in a weak tea containing unused microbial foods. Too long a brewing time will usually result in a loss of bacterial and fungal biomass, a loss in nematodes and frequently an increase in protozoa (protozoa feed on the bacteria and fungi yet still are a postive influence in my opinion ) i like to bubble teas for around 18-24hrs with ideal conditions i.e airation and water temps .
With all that said i guess you could strip down all of the information gathered get your lighting on track give them a light flush as Hushpuppy stated and you should be on the road to redemption !
All the best THC .
Here's a pic of your grow chart so we can see whats going on !
Click on pic to enlarge it

 

[Hushpuppy]

I would definitely still flush them as what you did probably didn't remove all of the buildup. I wouldn't have switched them just yet, maybe about 5 more days of healing first. However, I think you will be OK on the switch to flowering as they are on the up side of the problem now.

 

[saycheese]

Thankyou for all your advice,

I've collected a load of ewc for the top dressing

I'll let you know how it goes

 

[saycheese]

And thanks for the chart thc, I've never seen that one, I'm always picking the canna leaflet up in the grow store, but that wasn't on it

 

[saycheese]

I have a quick one but tough, I could only find extremeley limited info on google most of it fish tank related,

I know the ph of my aerated water goes up partly due to co2 being forced out so theirs less carbonic acid

Am I right in thinking that (along with filtering out the cal carbonate ) By airating and forcing unwanted gases out of the water, I'm decreasing the waters buffering capacity so even though it's high ph it *should* in (my) theory, take less citric acid to lower?

Will aerated water be more stable when ph'd, due to less of the acid being 'bonded' into compounds by unwanteds in the water like CaC03?

I understand buffering capacity to be this reaction of the alkali bonding with/ neutralising the acid I think I've understood this right

I need to sharpen up on my terminology molecules/atoms/anions/cations Im slowly becoming familiar with these terms, when the Plants are back on track I shall research this topic I think I'd be able to answer most of my own questions if I understood those words and their correct meaning

I am a little worried that with the ph back up at previous levels after filtering/aeration i might still suffer a ph swing in the nutrient mix

If this was the case I'd ph down lower, expecting it to swing, but if the water WAS more stable after filtering/aeration I'd aim right for the ph I want , about 6.5 expecting less of a swing

My Plants are losing the white tips slowly and are stretching ( for real this time!!) they have dried out much faster than expected so I don't have time to test the above theory before the water is needed ( and it's confusing me so much)

Thanks people- definately recovering I can't wai to Post some healthy pics ( under normal daylight as well)

 

[Hushpuppy]

Don't worry too much about the scientific particulars of PH right now. It is definitely a plus for you to know and understand it but most of the work on the PH is going to be done by the microbes, and you will definitely see a lot of swing if you monitor it closely. But that isn't necessary once you get it straight. If you flush them with bottled water, (it should be about neutral 7.0) then the higher PH issue in the soil should get corrected.

I have noticed that aerating does raise the PH and it will stay stable at that point if left alone. After flushing the soil, the PH in the soil should end up being close to 7.0 as well. So I don't think you will have to go real low on adjusting it down. I think if you bring it back down to around 6.6-6.8 then the microbes will have an easier time getting it where it needs to be from that point. As long as you don't have anymore issues with the calcium in the water (keep it filtered and check the TDS periodically to be sure the filter is doing its job) you probably won't have anymore problems with the PH.

I am glad that I could help you. Green Mojo for the kids

 

[saycheese]

Hi all, I gave them a light flush ph7 Top dressed with the fresh ewc mix
And then a watering with tea mix ph6.8 with levelled tablespoon of Epsom salts ( in 5litres )

I aerated all waters and the nutrient mix overnight and the ph stabilised to 7.1/7.2 so only needed small amount of lemon, I checked it regularly and I did find tha the ph of the aerated mixes didn't seem to swing after ph adjustment
I shall check this again to be sure but before aeration ph after adjustment would swing up by a worrying amount, with aerated nutrient mix the ph swung up by 0.2 in 3-4 hours.

I shall in future always filter, aerate then stand all waters,

I also put rhizotonic in all of it at 0.5ml per litre ( canna chart posted by thc suggests to use it through early flower which is great cos the date on mine says it goes off in 4months so there's plenty needs using )

The pots are real heavy but as long as they don't feel overwatered I think I'm ok they have been looking much more vigorous and nice maybe a tiny bit of twist but I think it's just fast growth,

Does anyone know, apart from the expense, Is there any reason NOT to add hygrozyme to every feed and watering?
I've always added it at 0.5-1 ml per litre every time, when I started growing I opted for a regime of feed:feed:feed:feed at low strength , aiming for no runoff ( aiming to emulate techniques by soma ) so the habit of adding a little of everything every time has stuck for some products, I overuse/ more frequently use anything with a low or zero NPK. I think of humans and vitamin pills ie body produces less of a certain substance if it's chemically supplemented, would excess enzymes in soil cause the producers of those enzymes to become 'lazy'?

Also I have guanokalong powder guano it has 0.15% cal and 0.08 mag
Bearing in mind I have adequate cal from the water can I still top dress this in flowering? Again I've googled and ganjadiggered many times I can only find infO on the batmix soil and the liquid Guano
I think I need to top dress it soon, I'm unsure of how long it takes to break down and I think I want it to be available in week 4-5 of flowering, I could just brew tea with it which is no problem but again I worry about the calcium content

Thanks people, I've had some of these questions on the tip of my tongue for so long, spent many hours with google but you guys here at MP have really helped to bust these mysteries wide open for me I can't thank you enough

 

[ShOrTbUs]

Also I have guanokalong powder guano it has 0.15% cal and 0.08 mag
Bearing in mind I have adequate cal from the water can I still top dress this in flowering? Again I've googled and ganjadiggered many times I can only find infO on the batmix soil and the liquid Guano
I think I need to top dress it soon, I'm unsure of how long it takes to break down and I think I want it to be available in week 4-5 of flowering, I could just brew tea with it which is no problem but again I worry about the calcium content

Thanks people, I've had some of these questions on the tip of my tongue for so long, spent many hours with google but you guys here at MP have really helped to bust these mysteries wide open for me I can't thank you enough

yes you will be ok top dressing with that. the cal and mg is there to keep the ph from dropping. high N guano and blood meal are both short term fast release N. if you wanted slow release long term N, feather meal would be a good choice. since the guano will be sitting right on top of the new ewc, it will cook faster then if mixed globally into the soil. high N guano/blood meals will actually generate heat when the microbes in the ewc begin to break it down. remember when you top dress with the guano to not let it come in contact with the stem of the plant. if you top dress now, you should see an improvement(darker green) in about 7-10 days.

 

[saycheese]

Thanks short, Its the 'p' I want to be available, there's little/no N in the guanokalong powder, I was kind of hoping the guanokalong would be a good organic PK and I want to time it right, if you think the calcium content is not a problem thats cool, I will top dress now, and again maybe 5 weeks into flower plus a tea or two when they are swelling

 

[Hushpuppy]

I agree. I think that the guanokalong should be ok as it has to be broken down by the microbes and made available to the plants. And that small amount probably won't shift the PH enough to notice. It was the disolved calcium in the water that was the real culprit I think.

I have some Hygrozyme that I accidentally ordered thinking it was something else but I haven't started using it yet. I don't yet know enough about it.

 

[ShOrTbUs]

it really cant hurt, although u might not wanna use it a lot just for the fact that your wasting your money if you already have a strong microbial herd. bacteria and fungi produce the same enzymes for the purpose of breaking down organic compounds to make them readily available to plants

 

[ADK High]

Good Grief! classic lockout of multiple immobile nutrients, I've been in your shoes bro! Flushing should be your last resort. Do you have a soil ph meter? if not I would get one. You ideally want your soil ph between 6.0 and 6.8. If your soil ph is 7.0 then you want your water ph to be between 5.8 and 6.6. Your plants have already undergone severe nutritonal stress and it will take time for the plants to resume vigorous growth, my guess is you could see some improvement within 4-5 days if you can get your soil ph down to desired levels.

 

[saycheese]

Plants are looking great now, symptoms have not progressed and growth is looking healthy

Seven days from switchover not showing much in the way of flower development But it's early days yet maybe just getting over stress

I think they might have been limp and rusty spotted by now without the great advice

I've put a second light (now 2x 400 hps ) And have started a new thread in 'lighting' regarding my new issue, i may end up going back to 430w hps + 125w cfl depending on the opinions I get

Sick plants officially cured and rescued many thanks to all

 

[ShOrTbUs]

Plants are looking great now, symptoms have not progressed and growth is looking healthy

Seven days from switchover not showing much in the way of flower development But it's early days yet maybe just getting over stress

I think they might have been limp and rusty spotted by now without the great advice

I've put a second light (now 2x 400 hps ) And have started a new thread in 'lighting' regarding my new issue, i may end up going back to 430w hps + 125w cfl depending on the opinions I get

Sick plants officially cured and rescued many thanks to all

i'm so glad your plants are doing better. at 7 days into flower calyx production has not taken off yet(for most strains). you will mostly see increased vertical growth showing alternating nodes.

 

[TwoHighCrimes]

Hi saycheese .

How are they coming along now ?

Peace THC.

 

[saycheese]

they were looking spot on for a day or two,

they had vega 16ml in 8litres of water two days ago

now looking like this, im not sure if they are 'rosetting'/'bunching' or if its normal, looks to me like zinc def but i think theres zinc in biovega

worries me that if ive fed with zinc in the feed maybe its a lockout or possibly still ph of soil not quite on point yet, they dont seem to show the same interveinal chlorosis as when a little mag deficient

they have shown white tips and still have a little bit of white tip so i think zinc

also the bunching areas show a tiny bit of light green rubbery growth towards middles a bit like ordinary fast growth but i dont like the colour or the rubbery look

maybe its just normal growth but im not convinced

have been researching zinc def but i dont think there can be a lack of anything the only thing not supplemented was mag i think everything else is provided by these nutes

i did try to add extra lighting but it pushed temps way out of the acceptable range and im wondering if the plants are having bad reaction to a very hot period ( few hours @ +38 degrees )

was really hoping to post healthy pics but alas no i think ill battle with these for a while yet til they healthy again, if at all

(pics taken under hps- they look yellower than they really are, really theres no yellow yellow til deep under canopy, only few leaves, rest of plants are a 'N-less' lime colour, hope to see improvement from the vega)

 

[saycheese]

also i found a graph like a circle with all the elements around it joined by lines,
it seemed to explain how one element effects another regarding plants

i vaguely got the idea, more of one element necessitating more of another, or slowing the uptake of another, solid lines with arrows and dotted lines to show the different sorts of relationships between multiple elements

does anyone know what its called so i can hunt for more about it, or where i can find a simplified graph and explanation?

i want to build a better understanding of whats happening when excess of a particular element effects another

also it might be important to mention my last two waterings have been a much greater amount (was giving 5litres now giving 8litres ) taking 4-5 days to dry rather than the previous 2-3 days, even though the nutes were aerated almost up until feeding time could still have spent too much time wet, im gona back off the amounts anyway and see if it helps ( i dont let them wilt so it shouldnt hurt )

if the plants have gone pale all over will they/can they go normal dark green again? all over? or will it just be newer growth that gets its colour back,
what i think i mean is once the nutes in the leaves start to get used up as a source can they still be a sink and green back up or do they remain how they are, yellowed but not getting worse, once they stop being a source?

just because ive fed vega and top dressed ewc i thought that would be adequate N to 're-green' the foliage if that was indeed possible

thanks

 

[TwoHighCrimes]

Hello saycheese ,

I cannot find the nutrient /element chart that you refered to and..
I dont grow indoor but your top leaves appear to be feeling the heat IMO !
Canoeing indicates this and they look a lil hot !

Do you have a good breeze blowing across the canopy ?
It is possible that your leaves may colour up again but this is depending on just how yellow they have become any more than 20-30% may take quite some time to return and indoor growers generally have a limited time schedule !
Having no light on them will also fracture photosynthesis values as well !
Yet if your leaves have gone past the point of around 20-30% they may well NOT return at all !
Often once the leaves occur any damage wheather it be deficiency or Ph causing lockout 9 times out of 10 the damage will always remain IMO !

You might wish to keep a watch on the temps at the canopy level !
Applying vege nutes will also promote new top growth and the plant may accept that the lower leaves are lost ! Yet applying vege nutes while flowering any further could lead to ugly bud syndrome or even hermie due to the plant not recieving what it needs at this crucial time !

I'm sure others will chime in as well so i wish you luck and my input is only based on an opinion due to not being much of an indoor grower for a long while at all !

EDIT : Could you take a pic in normal daylight so we can see the colours better ?

Good luck !
THC.

 

[saycheese]

hi thc i got some shots in a more natural light ( well, bathroom flouro )

i think im stressing a bit too much and that the symptoms remaining are just what the plants will bear as 'scars' from the multiple minor mishaps like soil ph being out and a few brief periods of high temps due to my own experimenntation with lighting

lighting wise im settling on 430w hps and 125w bloom cfl (each with its own reflector) and hanging another 125w blue cfl. 680w in total but im hoping if i keep the distances optimum ill get the yield/performance of a 600w hps.
they shouldnt cook

what do ya think?