Big Mikes $1000000 challenge

[R00T BOUND]

sorry if im ruffling feathers, but im not a AN fanboy, success in growing is so much more complicated that nutes.

No worries my feathers don't get ruffled. I have the $ to spend and really don't look at it as a waste, that is my prerogative - I get great results with AN, and I am learning it, yes it is complicated and there is a load of things you need BUT, I have nothing but time to kill, and yes I could get great results with the cheaper stuff, this I KNOW. If you are not a fan of AN that is YOUR prerogative BUT, do you, or have you used any of their product? I am guessing no then you have really no idea what you are talking about, or do you? I have learned to live by; "opinions are like a**holes, every one has one".

Not trying to ruffle feathers either, just stating my thought...

 

[R00T BOUND]

real growers know nutes are the easiest to control, the rest is what separates the boys from the men.(environment)

good luck

So,,, are you stating that "real growers" don't use AN? so,,, the only way I can grow real MJ is by using GH? boy do I have it all backwards, keep your opinions to yourself

 

[JBonez]

Jbonez, read the Albrecht papers, it was written by a scientist from the 50's who was pretty much the father of nutrient science and TLO growing. He slams liquid nutrients but not because they don't work, because they cause soil inbalances and a plethora of other things when used in the great outdoors. He spends a lot of time talking about and explaining about soil conditions, nutrient uptake, and preposes a lot of theories that people are just now starting to come around to. He might be able to change your mind on this whole nutrients don't mean jack attitude you have. Its a pretty technical read so I'll understand if you just keep on keepin on with the attitude you have.

Personally it was an eye opener for me and really helped draw a line in the sand for growing styles, its inspired me to develop a system at home here for doing an organic hydro setup using soil to feed the plants and a hydro tray to water them. I can only imagine the headaches I am creating for myself but believe the benefits will outweigh the time that needs to be spent to achieve it.

There are plenty of people with all kinds of fancy letters after their name that would disagree with you and each other. Also just so you know, if you just used dirt and water that was void of nutrients, your plant would die but I'm sure you knew that to.

dang tater where the heck you been brother!

glad you stopped in.

First off, i grow ebb and flow, so the soil biz isnt something im contending, lol.

As far as my "Nutes dont matter" attitude, you should know me better than that mang.

Of course nutes matter!

Its the proportions im contending are jacked.

Tell me why AN needs such a huge product line? Then tells you to buy it all for the best yield???? Cmon man, marketing was part of my education, and lemme tell ya, AN has it going on.

They meet all the criteria for impulse buyers wanting only the best.

1.Flashy logos
2.Flashy names
3.The Urban Grower Remo practically drinking the stuff live on the internet
4.Intimidating Prices (big egos fall victim here)
5."buy this or else"

Just to name a few.

Now, as for a more educated answer, i offer this humbly.

At what point did nutrient ratios suddenly become non protocol? Marijuana can only absorb what its capable of absorbing relative to environmental rigors. If one factor is off, and you know this, it can throw the whole grow off, stunt growth yada yada yada.

So if you mean to tell me that any one fert is better than the other, im going to disagree.
Mj only needs what it wants, provided its uptake is allowed by outward conditions controlled by God, who is personified in this case by me, and you can mix other nutes to be inline with a good schedule or you can just go with the GH FN like me, my plants are nuts right now, like on crack. Advanced nutrients isnt going to give my plants something better, just more of what it doesnt need to use. Now, Advanced nutrients could be broken down into a formula that would equal the exact or close to nutrient content as FN, but i would need the numbers to crunch that one! I use FN, it has all that crap AN has mushed into one.


you gotta know whats in each bottle, nutrient makeup and content.

When you know this, every fert becomes essentially a different additive that you can mix and match to get the neccesary levels the plants will thrive at.

lets keep this going,

 

[JBonez]

So,,, are you stating that "real growers" don't use AN? so,,, the only way I can grow real MJ is by using GH? boy do I have it all backwards, keep your opinions to yourself

really, no disrespect but if you are any good with interpretation (reading between the lines) Then what im saying is that real growers know HOW to use AN lineup, in conjunction with tightly controlled Env. factors. All nutes are worthless in less than minimal conditions.

please dont put words in my mouth friend, i said the environment is where most fail, Im saying AN isnt better, nothing wrong with it, just no different from the other hype on the shelves, (GH's hype comes mainly from word of mouth testimony, and its fail proof if you have a brain.) again, my own anecdotal testimony to what works



i know folks who use it. There testimony (and buds!) is proof enough for me that its no better, lmfao, no really.

And im most definitely not saying go rush out and buy FN, sheesh.


Rather, do some homework and find out what mj loves and at what amounts.

Pick your ferts based on a combination of nutrient requirements to find what fits.

Im really not saying the contrary guys, not sure why it seems that way lol.

 

[JBonez]

yo rootbound, disregard my statement if you are using the AN line up according to the nutrient requirements for marijuana.

Do not disregard if you just spent the money because of hype!

rootbound (love the screen name)

This post is but a small example of why im not against you, lol.

you obviously are using it and having good results, kudos.

But is it better than mine? who knows, im gonna say no, not because im a pompous jerk, but all my affecting factors are in perfect synce for growing, i spent the money it would take to buy the whole AN lineup and built my grow to be extremely controlled.

My temps are 78 at all times during lights on and about 7 degrees cooler during lights out.
RH flux's between 40-50%

I run a total of 1500 cfm's in fans to keep the lights cool and the air exchanged once every 30 seconds. Ample fresh air!

My res temp is about 70 steady.
has a circulation pump and a air pumps with stones(forgot the lpm on the pump)

I use a hybrid creation RO unit, that i pieced together for 0 ppm water and i can fill a 100 gallon res in 6 hours with it. Total 7 stage RO.

500 micron prefilter to---booster pump to-----pressure guage to------another 500 micron pre filter to--------2x carbon blocks to------2x RO membranes to-------DI unit to-------auto fill resevoir.

Pic of my RO/DI unit

booster pump gets me up to 65psi, barely tho! And if fluctuates between 60-70

Why? water is so crucial in nutrient management, and good growers know this little gem is part of the puzzle. (i go 7 days with extremely minor yet beneficial ph flux.

1000w Hortilux/lumatek (no hype here lumateks are proven ballasts)

I dont run co2, i should, but im gonna be building a sealed grow shortly so the co2 will be needed. I dont think co2 adds weight from what ive researched, just quality, which i am hunting for when i go sealed completely.

Do you see why im saying what im saying?

Everything you do to make it possible for maximum absorbtion is going to yield results, period.

AN doesnt work, nor does any nute, when the plant is stunted from lack of transpiration for example.

Organic guys own us all here, but it has its drawbacks too.

Nutrient make up man, every product line is crazy different, but the proportions for success are hiding in them all from a mathematical standpoint. (why i use FN, every required nutrient is in one solution, yeah yeah nutrient salts, i change my res every week, its not a problem)

any addtional would increase my Ec to unnacceptable levels of nutrient and with a high ppm, burn could take place. Stunting growth. There is no way AN line meets the plants needs any more than other nutrients in the right amounts.


whos to say your grow isnt as dialed as mine? I dont know? I doubt it, but if our variables are the same, then we could compare nutes, lol. This challenge biz to me is just another gimmick like the first one. Anecdotal best i could ascertain. Correct me if im wrong kind sir!

 

[JBonez]

lame, advanced nutes are def nothing special, lol.

spending money on pricey nutes when all your plants need are the nutrients they are capable of taking in, priceless, lol.

Advanced is some decent stuff from what ive read, but it WILL NOT increase your yield. (should have said will not increase yield over other nutes, sorry)

Proportionately, neither will any other nute, The plants will only take what they need based off environment, cramming supplements down there throats is not only stupid, but a very good way of saying "i obviously dont know how to grow" and a sure fire way to actually slow growth potential.

Ill stick with my GH Floranova, im expecting 2lbs from a 1000w this round.

and to the guy that spent all that sweet jack on everything in the AN lineup, well, im sorry, lol, nutes do not make you grow better.

yet again, more proof i am not taking sides with any one nute, just what i have going and working which is GHFN, so why add more than what the plants need? So i can burn em??

 

[ozzydiodude]

IMO til you get the enviroment of you grow dial in, You will not be able to adjust nutes for max growth.


Great RO system JBones

 

[R00T BOUND]

Hey JBonez, what kind of tent are you in?

Nice RO system too btw...

 

[JBonez]

4x4 sunhut silver XL, Its actually 54"x54" to accommodate the botanicare flood tables which are oversized.

As for the ro/di unit, thanks, i wanted a good platform to offer nutrients to without the inherent sediment and minerals in tap water, i know exactly what my EC is and what nutrients i am giving. It is kinda redundant tho, with the extra Membrane and "plumbing" i have an astounding 1//1 waste/product ratio, its usually like 1/3 or 4 gallons of wastewater!

 

[dirtyolsouth]

HI,

It would be interesting what would happen in a nute dual with identical ideal setups and some great growers. What if Miracle Gro takes it ALL!?!

I used AN for several years at my last grow with a partner. He worked at the local Hydro store and got everything at cost. At first they didn't even put the stuff on display and only sold it when asked... Props to AN for havin' the nerve to market the stuff for what if was made for but selling it caused and still causes a lot of waves in the indoor gardening racket. In roughly 15 years of growing on and off I've found that just about all nutes work if you have everything else together. It took me years to figure this out. I always say to my pals learning to grow that the first million hours are a b*tch... after that it's a piece of cake. You gotta love doing this otherwise why would you ever risk it and not just buy the local offering. Anyone who does this for any length of time has a true Marijuana Passion.

We used the full AN 2+ program/lineup for the first couple of years and it performed great. I'm the techie type so I didn't mind mixing up all the caca but even for me the additives were about a half dozen things too much. Not to say the each piece didn't contribute but geez... We used to line all the bottles up in order on a table and as I'd call out the ingredient he'd hand it to me and I'd mix it in, handing the previous ingredient right back to him as he gave me each new bottle... clockwork but geez... What a rigamaroll...

By far the easiest grows we did was when AN had these pre-measured packets of the 2+ program in weekly packets you'd just dump the packets out of each week's labelled box and get extra week 4 feed kits if your strain was more than 8 weeks. At some point they either stopped making the packets or maybe they stopped shipping them to the U.S. and my buddy got them below cost until they all ran out at the store. We were using ebb n flow tables and these packages were a breeze. I don't know if they ever started making those again. I got out of growing the last few years due to living circumstances, etc... For the last year or so at that location we went to soil and used the Iguana and full organic AN nute calc lineup which is much more manageable. Although the yield was slightly less, we were growing for just us and the weed it produced in soil was killer... def another rung or two up the ladder in taste and dankness from what the 2+ was doing when we first switched to soil imho.

Now I'm FINALLY back to flowering my girls... I'm Happy, happy, happy... I wanted to go with Iguana but that hydro store is out of biz and no one else carries AN within 4 hours of here so it was a no brainer not to use it. I get enough UPS coming here as it is... And the cost of shipping liquids blows... I'm now using PureBlend Pro and about a half doz of Botanicare's additives with their organic feed program and I'm very pleased with what's going on in my week 7 bloom room but the jury will be in deliberation until the harvest hits my lungs. The local hydro store gave me a little Bloombastic to check out so I've been alternating that with Bio Bizz Top Maxx for the first few weeks of bloom and now I'm alternating some Overdrive I got from a buddy with a sample of Purple Maxx for the last two weeks before the flush.

Just about all of it works with some patience, effort, skill and the right gear...

Peace!

 

[R00T BOUND]

4x4 sunhut silver XL, Its actually 54"x54" to accommodate the botanicare flood tables which are oversized.

As for the ro/di unit, thanks, i wanted a good platform to offer nutrients to without the inherent sediment and minerals in tap water, i know exactly what my EC is and what nutrients i am giving. It is kinda redundant tho, with the extra Membrane and "plumbing" i have an astounding 1//1 waste/product ratio, its usually like 1/3 or 4 gallons of wastewater!

I have a ro/di unit myself, But I get about half your output, it is perfect 4 me

I was looking at sunhut myself, but, ended up getting 2 GrowLabs 1 GL145 (5'x5', flower) and 1 GL120 (4'x4',veg/moms) both with 1000k's + I have a HomeBox XS (2'x2') for my clones, T5 in there...

 

[R00T BOUND]

I always say to my pals learning to grow that the first million hours are a b*tch... after that it's a piece of cake.

Boy, is that ever a true statement...

 

[The Effen Gee]

No thanks.

Advanced Nutrients suck anyways.
Overpriced, mostly diluted application ratios.

However, Big bud is the shiznit. Powdered not liquid.

 

[Tater]

JBonez, doing good man.

I think I'm picking up what you are putting down you just came across wrong is all. I agree AN's suggested amount to use is way out of wack but I would also say that about just about any feeding regimen printed on a bottle. AN isn't a bad line per se, overpriced, maybe but I don't think so when you look at the concentration it is sold in compared to say GH. I do agree though that putting your ladies into a nutrient soup with little to no knowledge of what the plant actually requires is pretty darn foolish. I would also be willing to wager I could hit the same results I get with just about any nutrient line up there and have just finished my last AN grow. This is more about personal choice rather than slagging the line.

Nice call though on the marketing as this is truly the one thing AN does well, big mike sure likes to make a lot of noise in the scene and it works. They sell a shitload of product. In the end you just gotta read, research, and apply common sense to all your gardening. If someone comes up to you and offers you magic beans don't sell them your cow lol ya know what I mean. I've seen huge plants grown with nothing but MG.

Also hi everybody, nice to be seen.

 

[JBonez]

I have a ro/di unit myself, But I get about half your output, it is perfect 4 me

I was looking at sunhut myself, but, ended up getting 2 GrowLabs 1 GL145 (5'x5', flower) and 1 GL120 (4'x4',veg/moms) both with 1000k's + I have a HomeBox XS (2'x2') for my clones, T5 in there...

nice, yeah, i decided to do away with my impatience and went with a setup that can make all the water i need in less than half a day, even at half the capacity i would be fine tho, thats why i called it redundant, lol.

I use a 3x3 tent for veg, i realized that veggin plants dont need as much room or even that much light for that matter.

My veg tent uses a 400w MH with a cooltube and passive intake.

However, now that im leaning towards sog, i may need to increase my acrage for future plants in veg.

sounds like me and you have a similar setup, i know how much i love not worrying about anything but the cops with my grow.

I love that quote, "after a million hours it gets easy" aint that the truth, but i would have to make an amendment.

After you switch to hydro it gets easy, lol.

Soil is great in all, but too much guesswork involved and i have so much more control with ebb&flow. (and a lot less maintenance time in the grow room, i still spend alot of time looking at em tho!)

 

[dirtyolsouth]

I love that quote, "after a million hours it gets easy" aint that the truth, but i would have to make an amendment.

After you switch to hydro it gets easy, lol.

Soil is great in all, but too much guesswork involved and i have so much more control with ebb&flow. (and a lot less maintenance time in the grow room, i still spend alot of time looking at em tho!)

Wow... one man's bane is another man's joy, indeed! My thoughts couldn't be MORE opposite... I hated hydroponics with all the trays, rocks, buckets, coir, reservoirs, added humidity, etc and when I got into soil there was a learning curve but imho there's much less tweaking as a great soil does so much of the buffering and compensation for you. But... I have to say that I did hydro for years when I had to do remote grows with everything mechanized and there's so many little details that are dependent on timers and technology working smooth... Once I figured out that large pots can go for days without watering and required less monitoring I never looked back... And I never can get my grows as good as with hydro as I do in soil but that's probably more a reflection on me and my lack of harmony with hydro... I guess I never could get my hydro chi harmonically converged!

Different strokes for different folks though, huh...?

Rock on Bonez! If it's working don't fix it, right?

 

[JBonez]

right on dirtyolsouth!

I couldnt be happier to say goodbye to soil, but i am also having great success my first time in hydro, it took a lot of reading but i havent had any problems yet, honestly, i cant think of one. I do absolutely zero maintenance for 7 days at a time, the occasional top off auto adjusts to the ph of the res.

I blame my success thusfar to an in depth thread about the lucas formula and found that it works perfectly, but you have to abide by it, and no deviation!

But, soil was nice, water it here and there. I guess i didnt like the messes it makes, and i really found ph in the soil hard to control as i didnt really understand at the time how to actually feed to prevent that. Ill go back eventually, just gonna try em all until i find my favorite style of growing that works for me best.

 

[ozzydiodude]

just gonna try em all until i find my favorite style of growing that works for me best.

That is the key finding the best system for your growing style.

 

[samsabagash]

Just for SHITS-AND-Giggles!! I have the ADVANCE line, and I'm impressed with some aspects. But not really with other parts of it!! I was running a good organic set my Botonist friend hooked me up with, and I got my little pkg of advanced, and the new starts took off and passed my already going plants!! (Good)-the finish was nothing to be desired!! (as far as hype). The bud basically came out the same and at the same time-no real love other than they did grow faster!! (BFD)Just my 2 pennies in the hole!! Aloha!!!

 

[NorCalHal]

Wow, pretty crazy "challenge". Too bad it would cost a million to get it all set up on "the good ole boys" side. He should offer 5 milli.

First, my take on the Vid. You could tell Mike was pissed, and well he should.
A little background. The "good ole boys"(GH) is located in Sebastapol Cali, by Santa Rosa. Been family owned for years. Cool folks. All the "reasearch" done by GH was mainly back in the day by Humbolts finest. All "underground" testing, year after year,after year.

"Dan" he speaks of is actually the guy who "mentored" me back when I first startin' growing. He worked at a Hydro store in Berkeley before, well and during, the start up of Max Yeild. Dan is MASTER, believe that.
What was funny was when I first "read" the challenge, I thought about Dan being one that could do it, but alas he is not "The good ole boys".
Dan is mellow cat and I am sure neutrel. So, when Mike mentioned Dan, it was kinda cool.

Living in Cali, I saw first hand how "TGOB" did what they could to make Mike "jump through the hoops", but you know what, I would too, it's just business. If you can't handle it, sell soap. But yes, products were pulled due to lable issues, but all are back on the shelves now. They were off for about 3-6 months. "TGOB" had to adjust a few lables also.

Lets get onto Mike. IMO, I think he is a big whiner and needs to grow up.
Anyone that has a Vitamin regimine like that is friggin crazy! Did you guys see that! Damn. bty, he didn't look too "Healthy" to me. Looked like a burger boy, not a vitimin freak.

Nice Fridge.

His whining about distribution of the two mags is simple...TGOB distributes them and prints for free! They are free at all hydro stores. I wouldn't want a competitor to get a free ride either. Commen business sense.

I know 4 guys from my particular HS who own the 4 hydrostores in town. Not one received a letter warning them of AN and potential legal trouble.

Starving people??? Donate somewhere else then fool.

As far as the Challenge goes, IF it made sense and it could really be done, then I would bet that they would come out even. It would be within grams.
I agree with Jbonez on his posts, no one nuit is "THE KEY" to a succesful grow. All the Nuit companies want you to think that thiers is the best, but comperable results can be achieved usuing prob any nuits, if done correctly.

We ALL know, if thier was a "Magic" nuit or additive, then we would all be on the train.


I understand Mikes frustration, but damn bud, settle. We all know that SUCCESS is the best revenge. If your nuits are the cats meow, let US decide. That is what forums are for, to share results, and this debate was going on BEFORE "AN", and will go on well after.