Seeds suck

[NorCalHal]

I knew this would get a little attention.

First off, my HATS off to all you folks who start with seed. What a pain.

Since joining MP, I have been reading alot of grow journels with folks starting with beans, and to great success. This caused me to spend too much loot and try the same. Just looking for something better and something to call "my own lil' pheno".

After going thru many packs..it is of my opionion that finding a special pheno is like finding a needle in a haystack.

Many of you know a bit about me and the area in which I live. With that said, yes, I am spoiled BAD. I am fortunate in the folks that I know and the relationships I have deveoloped with Dispensaries.
I am lucky in the fact that I can usually get "elite" cuts from hard to reach folks.

Even with that said, there are more and more clone stock being pushed into the Med scene. I must say that most of them are really not what the lable says, that is a fact.

One thing you have to understand is that with the exception of Blue Sky, all clubs get thier Clone Stock from thier membership. What this means is that any yahoo can go into a club and sell clones and tell the dispensary owner whatever they like as far as what strain it is.
I know this firsthand as I was a part of this at an old club in Oakland back in '97. If I was short 15 clones in a tray of say Trainwreck, I would throw in 15 clones ofd whatever else I had and call it all trainwreck, as it was just easier and noone ever complained, as it was the only game in town at the time.

I am talking about the ole 3rd Story in Oakland, a true wild west dispensary that ruled the Bay for a few years, until Ed got popped and the whole show shut down. Ed Rosenthal, the man, the myth, the crazy bastid that is the true hero of MJ.

Now mind you, a reputable club will soon hear feedback from the clone buyers and see finished product and judge if it is an acurate representation of what the clone vendor said it was.

But, we all know this will take a minimum of 3 months to verify. Meanwhile, those cuts have been pumped out of the dispensaries.

An outcry is rare, as even though it may not be what the strain lable says, it is still a Female MJ plant that will produce bud. I have NEVER heard of males being pawned off as legit female clones. Never.


Now, back to seeds. I can't say enough how much respect I have for you all that start from Seed. I fully understand that is the only way most of you are going to be able to grow because of the State/Area in which u live. You have to roll the dice every grow.


I think alot of my dismay comes from the wide variablility of the strain. It may all be "strain X", but DAMN, it seems like dfferent plants sometimes.
To top it off, they seem to take longer to finish out.
I have heard that if you have a Clone of the original Seed, then they will flower a bit faster and be more "alike". Maybe someone could elaborate on this, as I would like to know.

Another dislike I have is self induced. I usually have a few plants started from seed going flowering alongside my usual strains that I have had for a long time, so the seeds jsut don't fit in. I understand that I "should" dedicate a tray to nothing but the seed plants, and maybe buy a few packs so I can fill the tray witha ll fems of the same strain.

Oh ya...I'll never touch Fem beans again..never, so that will not be an option for me.

For me, and my goals, I think I will have a better shot at finding pheno's I want to keep by "weeding" thru clones bought at clubs. I have thought long and hard about this, and I think I am going to roll that way. Maybe I am just lazy.

So, sorry for the rant, and I by no means wish to discourage folks from seed, quite the opposite.

 

[2Dog]

I like using both. clones from reliable mother plants seeds for new stuff to try...win win.

 

[kaotik]

hate messin with seeds sometimes too. wish i could buy clones like some of you.

got a few seeds of some atomic NL from a friend.. and ofcourse i'm having problems.. now if i had lots of seeds, they'd probably be fine.. but i only have a few, and really want them to take, so ofcourse they're trouble. figures.

 

[4u2sm0ke]

:48:


Much respect Norcal...I get clones ...but theres something about whatching those beans pop and grow into something Great...the excitement of wondering what the sex is...its an adrenolin for me...so i like both...Thanks for the thread..


:bong:

 

[monkeybusiness]

What gets me is when i have 8 out of 10 seeds sprout and then watch as they all seem like completely different breeds because they have such a variance in phenotypes.

Then if i get 3 or 4 females out of it, and even if I reeeeeally like one of em, all i can think about is how different they are from each other and how i wished i could have grown out a 100 in order to hone in on the couple i would have preferred even more than the 1 mother i'm now gonna kind of settle for.

Don't get me wrong i know there are some breeds out there with more of a uniformity to them but that's the difference to me between breeding and seed making.

Having said all this i do like the 'against the odds' conquest of trying to find that one special, favorite phenotype in the haystack.. I just always doubt my results

Luckily the smoke is always the bomb anyway, hahaha

 

[OGKushman]

Yea, I just lost my first 25$ seed. I am starting to agree. Had nothing but luck with clones. About 40% of my seeds make it to flower. Most get chopped, are male, too small, shotty genes...etc

Paying for random genes has been a risk, going to good collectives has been nothing but good mojo all day long.

Collectives and some seeds I actually pull out of bud....has been my best experiences.

Makes sense anyways...

 

[Locked]

Yeah I hve found out first hand just how hard it can be to start from seed this current grow...Hve had lots of success in the past grows starting from seed but this one has been rough...I hve gone through quite a few seeds from seedbay and Elite Genetics and I hve only 4 lil seedlings to show for it...I wish buying clones was an option but not were I live...

 

[HippyInEngland]

Nowhere sells clones in the UK.

Seed or secret clone swaps here only.

Personally I prefer the seed route, you know what your working with and its clean.

Not all of us are as lucky as having an open minded dictatorship.

eace:

 

[Locked]

Not all of us are as lucky as having an open minded dictatorship.

eace:

Yeah unfortunately in my state I only hve the dictatorship...not the open mindedness...

 

[nvthis]

Ah yes, but all it takes is one... One single skunk seed to find the UK Cheese and set the mj world on its ear. A few bagseed and the totally dominating Chem family is born. It's an odds shot to match the lotto for sure, but it only takes one..

 

[NorCalHal]

:48:


Much respect Norcal...I get clones ...but theres something about whatching those beans pop and grow into something Great...the excitement of wondering what the sex is...its an adrenolin for me...so i like both...Thanks for the thread..


:bong:

I fully understand man. I too felt a bit of "excitement" too and it's a cool feeling watching them grow out. But I am just frustrated I guess.

monkeybusiness is about where I am at. IF I was to really want to start a new seed grow, it would be with 100 of the same strain, same company.

This has been a discussion around the campfire amongst my friends, and we all agree that if you really want a good pheno of say "White Widow", it is best to start with alot of non femmed beans and "weed" thru em.
But we all know that would be pricey...for most beans that you would really want to keep.


The Chem story is just that man...winning the lotto and being apart of a then"growing" internet forum scene. I do believe that true Chem and the "offspring" are some of the best herb around, imo.
To find that again, you have to wade thru 100's of like beans I would think, and find that one pheno.


Hippy...lol. I love my dictatorship here in cali! We are our own country pretty much.


Again, I applaud all those who have to use seeds everygrow.

 

[2Dog]

another reason for me to like seeds is that the clubs here have some nasty looking clones. I am afraid to taint my stuff with them. so seeds feel safer right now.

 

[SPEARCHUCKER]

I like beans. Dont care for clones.
Beans are so easy. Just stick in wet dirt.... The end.

I wait about 5-6 days. If nothings coming up. I dig up the bean, and toss a new one in that hole.

I never understood the love for clones. Maybe cause Im just old. Like my old fashioned methods.

 

[ElJefe1971]

I prefer clones too but I hear what you are saying, 2dog. It took quite a few visits to a bunch of different clubs before I found a batch that even looked halfway healthy. The place I got my last batch was pretty legit and I have been going there for months, so having familiarity with the source definitely helps.

 

[Mutt]

I'm cloning a lot less. I find keeping a clone as a mother is easier than a seed start, but clones never compared to the seed for me. The seed start just does better hands down.

As far as all those top dollar genetics...if your looking for a "pheno" prolly won't find much of anything except what you paid for....a backcrossed who knows how many times for a stabalized trait. Not a pheno. A trait. That doesn't vary much at all.

I've been fortunate of chillin with some peeps that i do get pheno variety. Outcrossing is my favorite, but it can get wild. Plus hybrid vigor is something truly amazing to watch. If they inbreed its closely watched and run down more than 1x....like 3+ if theres a pheno there trying to lock in. Best thing about my lil circle is beans are free. Just keep the genetic pool broad with many to choose from....all in hopes of that "one" pheno.

I found that every strain lacks a lil something for me. So I'm on the ever search of couple of phenos that just work for me...and elite clones and breeder 10 dollar a bean will never get me there. Untill then I guess i'm stuck smoking seeded bud for the next two months, but hey I got about 1200 seeds of a variety of crosses and 2-3rd gen inbred...might be a champ in there somewhere.

Also if done right with perpetual growing. seed starts take me no more time and cloning for my size grow. I harvest 2 plants every 2 weeks. then two more go in. I also grow at least 4 diff strains at any given time. I sprout a lot and cull a lot. I keep the best ditch the rest, and males are just as useful to me as females....all means to an end.

 

[tcbud]

I get local clones, indica varietys, from the same guy every year. The clones, never have gotten big, but the smoke is always excellent.
Now the seeds, last year the Purps and Mango they were the bomb, two mango and one Purps out of twenty seeds, made it to maturity. Made some clones off them too. But still went with the indica clone guy.

Got some BlueBerry Seeds from a despensary over on the coast, said they were "hand delivered" from DJ Short. I am convinced now, from seeing how two females came out identical that the seeds were good stable seeds. I am impressed and DJ Short or not, whoever bred them did a good job. The Flo on the other hand, was three out of four hermi, one female. Go figure. Until they got big, both strains looked identical. Now, in flower they are very different, the size of the fan leaves were different too. The blueberry is getting very blue, while the Flo is staying nice and green. I dont think I have ever seen flowers put on trichs as early as these either, they are both sposed to be early finishers....Just what I want here with the short grow season.
I am for seeds and for clones. I would like to do more from seeds tho, getting the seeds is my obstacle. The one and only time I have bought something on the net was the first seeds, the purps.......

Good thread NCH.

 

[umbra]

my approach is to do both. start from seed and find something...clone that until the next seeds pop. Keep only the best, clone those...until the next seed pop, ect.

 

[Relentless999]

im doing several strains right now... i plan to take clones from each and then i can select the best pheno by keeping that clone as a mother..

problem is, i havent been successful with clones.. only tried once in rockwool, but it was a no go.

 

[GreenLantern7]

Don't have a choice in the matter, seeds. Land-locked police state. Will bonsai my blueberry to make room and buy more beans. create my own crosses.

 

[StoneyBud]

Great thread, NCH.

I follow two distinct routes in relation to seeds and clones.

When I use seeds, I plant at least 20 to gain as many females as possible. I don't breed, so I turn males into lawn mulch, literally.

After the female seedlings grow into large, vegetative plants, I cull the runts out, the sickly, and the malformed and then continue raising the ones that are the fastest growers and in the best over-all condition. After taking two clones from each plant, I then I switch them to flowering and record all of their traits again, all the way to harvest, drying and cure. After smoking the cured weed from each, I make up my mind about the one plant that out-performed all the others in all ways. The clones from that plant then become my host plants for future grows.

I keep my host plants for years sometimes. I treat them very well, consistently use the 30% rule on them and never cause them stress that will risk their health.

For those of you who are not familiar with the 30% rule, it's pretty simple, and will prevent you from having host plants turn hermaphrodite on you, due to stress.

1. Never take more than 30% of the available tops on a plant until 7 days has passed. Then take the next 30%, wait 7 days, and take the last group. You can cycle this procedure each 21 days, forever. Every 21 days, the tops you started with are ready to take again. Taking the cuts at the proper node will keep the plants at a consistent height for as long as you like, and the plant will maintain a great shape.

2. The other half of the 30% rule applies to how much of each branch you take on each cutting. Never take more than 30% of the entire branch. If the plant is 3 feet tall, this isn't a worry, because you wouldn't be taking more than the top 4 to 6 inches anyway. However, in the last few years, the trend to grow smaller and smaller host plants is happening and this portion of the 30% rule is important to follow if you're taking clones from a small plant. NEVER take more than 30% of the branch.

If you take more than 30% of either tops or branch, or take the cuttings more often than the plant can heal the previous cuts, then you risk altering your plant into a hermaphrodite or even having it change it's own characteristics.

I love clones.

With seeds, regardless of how stable the strain you've developed or purchased, *wild-cards* will come out. Just as with humans, the red haired, slow kid will be born in periodic generations in unpredictable time spans.

With clones, IF you keep a host plant healthy and free of stress, consistently water and feed the plant with care, it's clones will be EXACT duplicates of the host plant for as long as the host plant is alive.

That's why I love clones. No guessing. No red haired children popping out unexpectedly.

Plus, as most of you already know, the clones taken from a host will be at the same stage of growth as the host plant. If the host plant is sexually mature, then the clones taken will also be sexually mature as soon as rooted and put into either vegetative or flowering stages.

I always dread starting off another set of host plants. It just takes so long to arrive at a pair of solid host plants from seed, but it does give you variety.

I have some "ICE" seeds that I'm going to start as my next hosts, but the Pre/98 Bubba Kush hosts I have now will be feeding my next several crops. I have testing to do with this strain.

Great thread NCH!!!!