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turning male

rasta

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hey guys ,,,whats up ,,hey ?,,,,iv been growing this ak 48 for some time now with great results,,,this is about the 3 or fourth generation,,,all the clone have been good and strong and no problems till today i was watering and noticed that one plant i up potted about two weeks ago was male ,,,my ? is how can a clone taken from a healthy female end up male ,,,did i do something wrong,,,,,thanks
 

ozzydiodude

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Some way you have abused the clone and it has hermied on you. Check to see if you have a light leak that is hitting the clone in the dark cycle.
 

Mutt

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rasta said:
hey guys ,,,whats up ,,hey ?,,,,iv been growing this ak 48 for some time now with great results,,,this is about the 3 or fourth generation,,,all the clone have been good and strong and no problems till today i was watering and noticed that one plant i up potted about two weeks ago was male ,,,my ? is how can a clone taken from a healthy female end up male ,,,did i do something wrong,,,,,thanks
How many years have you been running this same female genetics? Are these cuttings tracing back to a single plant for years? Might be an age thing. Adaptation. never know.
Nice to see ya about Rasta hope all is well at your homefront. :48:
 

Rockster

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rasta said:
hey guys ,,,whats up ,,hey ?,,,,iv been growing this ak 48 for some time now with great results,,,this is about the 3 or fourth generation,,,all the clone have been good and strong and no problems till today i was watering and noticed that one plant i up potted about two weeks ago was male ,,,my ? is how can a clone taken from a healthy female end up male ,,,did i do something wrong,,,,,thanks
Welcome to the spontaneous sexual reversal club!

This is really interesting for me rasta as I had the same happen with a tray of cheese clones that when put into flower 2 grew out as perfect males and which enabled me to get a perfect genetic copy of the Exodus clone into seed form.

Any chance of some pics as this occurrence really deserves a thread of it's own?
 

Hick

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...."spontaneous sexual reversal".... :rofl:.. I'm sorry rocky', but you know my stance on hermies... "any" hermie.
and spontaneous sexual reversal is nothing but a new and improved term, description for it.
I'm not going to argue about it 'again', nor further comment on the false representations put forth by some on it.
The hermie characteristic "is" genetic, and "is not" a desirable characteristic or quality.
 

Rockster

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Sorry Hick, you are confusing a hermaphrodite with a female plant that has undergone total sexual change.

The whole bedrock of my Cheese#1 is based on the fact I had a female turn 100% male and which when used to dust sister cheese clones produced progeny identical in chemotype/resin profile to the original cheese momma.

If you were right my Cheese#1 would have hermies popping out all over but they don't as it wasn't a hermie but a 100% pure male.

If it was a hermie it would have had both male and female plant structures but it didn't.

This has also been reported by one other person online at Breedbay so please don't go on about hermies as you are wrong on this one and if you were right my Cheese#1 could not exist but it does?

But whilst here, seeing as you are a self declared hermie expert, when you pollinate with a hermie does it give rise to regular or femmed seed?

Because a plant that has totally spontaneously reversed only gives rise to regular seed with no hermies when it's pollen is used, as is the case with Cheese#1 and is my proof of what I say.
 

Mutt

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I still say age has something to do with it ;)


I wouldn't call it "spontaneous" There are many reports of some strains doing this AFTER the harvest window as a "survival response" which has to do with age. Age I guess could be viewed as a "stress". So it's not "spontaneous" but would lead one to beleive that the herm trait is not a dominant trait, but is in there somewhere. Also if you are going to report this "behavior" timeline is important and knowing background. No one has answered my question....how old were these plants when this occurred? Any other important info? To me just saying it was "spontaneous" is not enough data. notes people notes....
It may "appear" to be spontaneous to us watching. but in reality it may be an adaptive response to a particular stress.

Rockster said:
my Cheese#1 would have hermies popping out all over but they don't as it wasn't a hermie but a 100% pure male.
Just because it's not a dominant trait does not mean it's not a locked up recessive trait it didn't express until a stress occurred. Or one that will only occur in 1 out of a 100 offspring. Or even 1 out of 500. Still could be laying around in there somewhere.

The problem with many breeders is they don't dig that far into a strain to find the recessive traits. That requires starting batches of 100-200 seeds and culling the runts and geno mutants, but letting a vast majority grow out. Then you know the full spectrum of pheno variations, recessive and dominant traits. breeding 101 ;) notes...notes...notes.

Examples of data:
1. age of plant
2. cutting of a cutting of a cutting...if so how many until it goes back to the original donor
3. spectrum of light amount of light
4. consistent growing enviornment, same temps, same light schedule...same ferts, any variation could have an effect. See newton's law Also google environmental factors

good reading below.
hXXp://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/Adaptation-and-Phenotypic-Variance-1132

This has also been reported by one other person online at Breedbay so please don't go on about hermies as you are wrong on this one and if you were right my Cheese#1 could not exist but it does?
I'm sorry but a two person panel is not what I would consider accurate data. All it takes is a mis-label, mix-up, or something. Yes its possible in mother nature for this to happen, rare and still not a "full complete sex reversal" esp. how this one is presented. Chickens can do it.
hXXp://en.engormix.com/MA-poultry-industry/genetic/articles/sex-reversal-chickens-t926/103-p0.htm

In Botany sex reversal is pretty defined.
hXXp://www.mellowgold.com/grow/mjbotany-removed/marijuanabotany3.html
 

Hushpuppy

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This is interesting to consider. I consider myself to be a junior scientist and am fascinated by things like this. I would have to disagree with "spontaneous " as evolution and adaptation are ongoing processes in nature but are always spawned by some stimulus, even if we are unable to see it. genetic mutations and sexual reversal in many species of plants and animals does occur, but usually it is a detrimental effect on the DNA and often fails. when it doesn't fail we get a new variation in a given species. The best proof of a scientific theory is replication. have yu been able to repeat this occurance and have the same results?
 

Rockster

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Hushpuppy said:
This is interesting to consider. I consider myself to be a junior scientist and am fascinated by things like this. I would have to disagree with "spontaneous " as evolution and adaptation are ongoing processes in nature but are always spawned by some stimulus, even if we are unable to see it. genetic mutations and sexual reversal in many species of plants and animals does occur, but usually it is a detrimental effect on the DNA and often fails. when it doesn't fail we get a new variation in a given species. The best proof of a scientific theory is replication. have yu been able to repeat this occurance and have the same results?
I'd agree with pretty much what you say up until you saying a spontaneous sexual reversal is usually detrimental and we have to separate hermaphrodism from total sexual reversal as they are 2 different things.

When a plant gives rise to nana's late in flower it is a perfectly natural response to the stress of not being pollinated and will produce S1 fems but they are in no way detrimental to the gene pool as it will drop female seed that has every chance of being pollinated in the next season just like their regular sisters.

My genetics had a reversal but it was 100% male and this was borne out by the fact all the resultant progeny was a normal, healthy, male/female cannabis population with no hermaphrodite traits.

Go figure? :)

DSC_0166-14.JPG
 

Hushpuppy

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I am not saying that sexual reversal is detrimental as much as genetic mutations (according to scientific theories today) in general are detrimental to the DNA and most often end in the death of the cell and sometimes the host entity. The key here I think is whether yu can say definitively that sexual reversal is a viable genetic function of the MJ plant and not a DNA and/or chromasomal mutation. If it is a mutation then the survival of the (your) plant is an accidental success of adaptation within that plant (or strain), and is unlikely to be able to be replicated outside of that specific DNA group. On the other hand, I would think it possible for that strain to have adapted what seems to be either a suseptibility to Herm or some deeply recessive trait of hermaphrodism, which has allowed the next step in the evolution process within your plants to successfully switch sexes. If that is the case then yu should be able to replicate the same process with another group in the same genetic lineage (and the switched males should less random and more ratio).
 

leafminer

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Rockster said:
But whilst here, seeing as you are a self declared hermie expert, when you pollinate with a hermie does it give rise to regular or femmed seed?

Because a plant that has totally spontaneously reversed only gives rise to regular seed with no hermies when it's pollen is used, as is the case with Cheese#1 and is my proof of what I say.
I'll respond to that. I did experiments into 4 generations based on a feral monoculture plant: male flowers + foxtail colas. Basically female.
I used the pollen on an indica strain and got 100% fem offspring which never hermied. Actually I just harvested the last one from a three yr old seed. I also used the same pollen to inbreed back to the first offspring and they were also all fem and also never hermie. I personally am not a believer in stress causing hermies. It's all in the genetics IMO. If the plant has sound genetics it won't herm. Except in the (usual) late stage of flower, you almost always get a few seed in sinsemilla bud that's been left very late.
 

Rockster

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Hushpuppy said:
I am not saying that sexual reversal is detrimental as much as genetic mutations (according to scientific theories today) in general are detrimental to the DNA and most often end in the death of the cell and sometimes the host entity. The key here I think is whether yu can say definitively that sexual reversal is a viable genetic function of the MJ plant and not a DNA and/or chromasomal mutation. If it is a mutation then the survival of the (your) plant is an accidental success of adaptation within that plant (or strain), and is unlikely to be able to be replicated outside of that specific DNA group. On the other hand, I would think it possible for that strain to have adapted what seems to be either a suseptibility to Herm or some deeply recessive trait of hermaphrodism, which has allowed the next step in the evolution process within your plants to successfully switch sexes. If that is the case then yu should be able to replicate the same process with another group in the same genetic lineage (and the switched males should less random and more ratio).
Er, no, and now I'm gonna call you on your sources for making such claims as you are dead wrong in claiming mutation is overall detrimental to any dna based gene pool as mutation combined with the selective pressure of any given environment is what has brought us here today and has given you the neural network to be actually able as a primate to type your words here ya monkey!

The fact of the matter is that most mutations are benign, some advantageous and some disadvantageous but by virtue of us reading my words evolution won through,huh?

Hermaphrodism and spontaneous sexual reversal, in scientific genetic terms are 2 non over lapping genetic magisteria and so should be seen for what they are?
 

Hushpuppy

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Well that's a shame. Hick is right about yu. I thought we could have an adult conversation discussing the science of MJ, but I see that while I am sure that I don't know everything and my information only comes from the books I read in college biology classes, It seems that you are an authority on the science of MJ and cannot stand any kind of discussion that might disagree with yer infinite wisdom. I apologize for engaging in this conversation with yu.
 

Rockster

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Hushpuppy said:
I am not saying that sexual reversal is detrimental as much as genetic mutations (according to scientific theories today) in general are detrimental to the DNA and most often end in the death of the cell and sometimes the host entity. The key here I think is whether yu can say definitively that sexual reversal is a viable genetic function of the MJ plant and not a DNA and/or chromasomal mutation. If it is a mutation then the survival of the (your) plant is an accidental success of adaptation within that plant (or strain), and is unlikely to be able to be replicated outside of that specific DNA group. On the other hand, I would think it possible for that strain to have adapted what seems to be either a suseptibility to Herm or some deeply recessive trait of hermaphrodism, which has allowed the next step in the evolution process within your plants to successfully switch sexes. If that is the case then yu should be able to replicate the same process with another group in the same genetic lineage (and the switched males should less random and more ratio).
I'm sorry, that is just plain nonsense, NO, you are wrong about your concepts of dna based genetics and evolution, because evolution is driven by random mutation and the selective pressure of the immediate environment so please stop posting guff that sounds like it came from a creationist website as I see enough of that **** on Youtube without it leaking out over here.

How about we cut to the chase?

You are both dissing evolution and me talking about what I perceive as a spontaneous sexual reversal within a cannabis population...........

...........so what is your take on it?

If you say god dunnit please go punch yourself in the head till your hand breaks, ok, thankyou.
 

Rockster

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Hushpuppy said:
Well that's a shame. Hick is right about yu. I thought we could have an adult conversation discussing the science of MJ, but I see that while I am sure that I don't know everything and my information only comes from the books I read in college biology classes, It seems that you are an authority on the science of MJ and cannot stand any kind of discussion that might disagree with yer infinite wisdom. I apologize for engaging in this conversation with yu.
You sound like a creationist wallowing in your own dogma, c'mon, man up boy, what is your problem?

I have never made myself out to be any kind of expert about dna and Mendelian genetics but I AM an avid student of the subject who has always posted in my threads asking for my betters and elders to pipe up if I'm getting anything wrong.

So I've basically told you your assertions are wrong and you get all hurt and bitchy on me and retreating into: oh it was just some books I read in school years ago..........well then, you tried to sound clever and were found grossly wanting weren't you?
 

Hick

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I see enough of that **** on Youtube without it leaking out over here.
I could say the same thing about breedbay..:rofl:..
This isn't rui or breedbay. You can curb your rude insults. Either engage in civil discussion, without the name calling, nastiness, and insults, or shutup. I won't allow it. Why, anytime someone disagrees with you, you turn to berating, insulting, and attempted belittling.

Millions of pot growers out there, and God chose you and one other blessed soul, to bestow a spontaneous sexual reversal on.... You "are" the chosen two...:) We are not worthy.. God, Jehovah, Allah, Jah, Buddha, have truly blessed you. :p .... go forth and propagate!
 

Rockster

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Hick said:
I could say the same thing about breedbay..:rofl:..
This isn't rui or breedbay. You can curb your rude insults. Either engage in civil discussion, without the name calling, nastiness, and insults, or shutup. I won't allow it. Why, anytime someone disagrees with you, you turn to berating, insulting, and attempted belittling.

Millions of pot growers out there, and God chose you and one other blessed soul, to bestow a spontaneous sexual reversal on.... You "are" the chosen two...:) We are not worthy.. God, Jehovah, Allah, Jah, Buddha, have truly blessed you. :p .... go forth and propagate!
Whoa there Hick mate. I seem to have touched a nerve?

Never mind Breedbay and just what are my rude insults? I'm shocked you accuse me of name calling, nastiness, berating and attempted belitteling?

Did you really see that in my recently posted words?

If so please tell me which words exactly?
 

Hick

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please go punch yourself in the head till your hand breaks, wallowing in your own dogma, man up boy,
It wasn't too bad, up to that point. Then "IMO" it became rude, insulting and belittling..;)

You know that I respect your opinions, and I have praised your diligence and perseverance in your breeding project. I know that you have put 'much' effort, much research, and (I would guess) probably a fair amount of head scratching into it. ;)
I just fail to see the need to attack hushpuppy for his/her opinion or perceptions. You weren't attacked for "Darwinism" theories, and I am having a hard time finding the association between anything HP posted and "creationism".
 

Hamster Lewis

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I might be in the minority but I find Rocksters posts to be a breath of fresh air....and if I had to be insulted by someone it wld be him...lol

Oh and Rocksters thanks for that great quote about the if god dun it....:D
I gotta put that in my sig.
 

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