Why no stretch

[woodydude]

For my last 3 groups of plants put into flower, there has hardly been any stretch, maybe 50%.
Before that, I was getting between 100 & 200% but not any more.
I have changed almost everything about my setup since my first 2 or 3 batches of plants, I am now using AN Sensi veg & flower, big bud, Voodoo Juice, B-52 and Overdrive. I keep the EC around 2.75 while flowering, progressively 1.25 - 2.5 veg over 6 weeks)
I have 2x 600W hps in cooltubes and lights on temps are around 75-82 depending how hot it is outside and around 60 lights off, again depending on o/s temps)
I have a 715M3/h fan exhausting (23 second air exchange) through the cool tubes and a 275m3/h bringing supplementary fresh air in. (I only run these lights on due to the noise, could it be this?) I had thought of just running the intake fan during lights off?? It will give me +ve air pressure but am willing to try anything.
I am now using RDWC buckets with each bucket getting around 5l/min air per bucket.
The strains that have shown very little stretch include Strawberry Cough, Big Bud, Blue Cheese, White Widow and Wonder Woman.
I have been using some stuff called Colossal Budblast which could be the culprit? Anyone any experience with this.
I put some into flower yesterday but used veg nutes instead of flower nutes for the first time.

I am at a loss thinking of why so little stretch which is why I am asking here. As far as I can make out, I am doing everything "by the book" and following good advice (from you MPers) and am now at the stage where I am getting a sore scalp with all the head scratching I am doing!!

Any suggestions??

 

[4u2sm0ke]

are all these runs of the same strain?...I know stretch can depend on strain..I have some that stretch more then others...another thing that creates stretch is lack of light..or to many plants createing low lumes..Good luck and stop scratching that head:giggle:

 

[dman1234]

i have a "the church" at 8 1/2 weeks that stretched/grew about 5 inchs, sitting right beside a kush at 8 1/2 weeks that stretch/grew 2 feet in flower.

 

[Locked]

My pre 98 bubba cut hardly stretches at all....the LVPK likes to shoot For the light and has significant stretch. Most differences I have seen have been strain related. Also I believe light reflecting up underneath the leaves causes "competitive" stretch.

 

[4u2sm0ke]

Also I believe light reflecting up underneath the leaves causes "competitive" stretch.
__________________

please explain this?

 

[Locked]

please explain this?

Wish I cld....lol

I think it goes something like this:
If you crowd your plants together the light gets reflected off the top of the leaves and since they are too close together it gets reflected underneath the Neighboring plants leaves causing them to competively stretch for the light source....I think it is the reason you don't want to put a reflective Material on the floor of your grow space.

Or I cld be talking nothing but dog farts here and be totally wrong...

 

[woodydude]

Or I cld be talking nothing but dog farts here and be totally wrong...

Love that line!!
Thanks for the comments guys.

The odd thing is that the Strawberry Cough and Blue Cheese I have which have not stretched recently are both grandchildren of my first cuttings, being clones of clones of clones and the original plants did 200% growth in flower. Of course, this could be due to the strain loosing its prowess several generations down the line but the smoke from both is getting better with each grow.

Thinking through the list of possible causes, light, CO2, plants per m2, nutrients, water, ph, etc, everything in the grow room is better. My original light was a 400W with a Son-T bulb (does this cause stretch?) but I now use Sunmaster bulbs in both lights (could that be the cause? But I would have thought the dual spectrum would cause stretch)

I have some Big Bud cuttings and an NL from seed put in to flower yesterday of which my friend has put the sisters into his flowering room so we can see the difference but he has also commented he does not get much stretch during flowering.

Is the stretch/growth a good thing???
Recent yields have improved without the stretch as the lower buds get more light.

It is annoying me quite a bit now lol

 

[4u2sm0ke]

Wish I cld....lol

I think it goes something like this:
If you crowd your plants together the light gets reflected off the top of the leaves and since they are too close together it gets reflected underneath the Neighboring plants leaves causing them to competively stretch for the light source....I think it is the reason you don't want to put a reflective Material on the floor of your grow space.

Or I cld be talking nothing but dog farts here and be totally wrong...

I agree with the craming in of plants that causes lack of light...But not on the reflective floor...Ive painted my floor white and added side light...so Im not sure I agree with the floor reflecting...Nice debate though..:48:

 

[StoneyBud]

"Plant Competition" is a very involved study within the study of Plant Biology.

It's quite a bit more involved than with just side lighting and reflected lighting.

However, anyone who does a side by side test of seedlings will find that those with reflective floors under them will experience more stretch than those without.

With side lighting, the light has to be reflected to the underside of the leaves for it to be considered as competitive growth lighting.

There are literally thousands of pages of text available on the subject on the net and probably millions of pages available via studies, textbooks and papers.

Not believing in gravity won't make you any lighter in weight. It'll just means you don't believe that gravity exists.

Competitive growth has been proven to exist. There is no doubt about it. If you place a plant into a position or in conditions that favor competitive growth, you will get competitive growth.

4U, if you didn't get competitive growth from your white painted floor, it's because the plants were large enough so they didn't even see the floor. If the undersides of the leaves *see* the floor, yes, you'll get competitive growth every single time. There is no doubt about this. Its as proven as gravity.

Any questions? hehe



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[Locked]

Thanks for chiming in Stoney....I thought it was from you that I had first heard of this but wasn't sure. Glad you cld shed some light on it.

 

[niteshft]

please explain this?

I read it's because the underside of leaves attempt to move away from the light.

 

[420_Osborn]

My tent has reflective flooring tho

 

[The Hemp Goddess]

.............I have changed almost everything about my setup since my first 2 or 3 batches of plants....


I am at a loss thinking of why so little stretch which is why I am asking here. As far as I can make out, I am doing everything "by the book" and following good advice (from you MPers) and am now at the stage where I am getting a sore scalp with all the head scratching I am doing!!

Any suggestions??

I'm confused--you talk like this is a bad thing. Stretch is not good and is not a desired growth pattern. I'm not sure what your concerns are. We all want nice tight close internode spacing and it seems you have it.....

You have changed everything--that probably accounts for the difference in growth patterns.

 

[Locked]

My tent has reflective flooring tho

So does mine but it is usually too dirty to reflect anything.....

 

[kiksroks]

I'm confused--you talk like this is a bad thing. Stretch is not good and is not a desired growth pattern. I'm not sure what your concerns are. We all want nice tight close internode spacing and it seems you have it.....

You have changed everything--that probably accounts for the difference in growth patterns.

I assume that he had accounted for the stretch in the design of his space and veg. time. So he didn't get the expected stretch and failed to efficiently take advantage of his grow space.

Will plants that didn't "stretch" yield as much as a taller stretched plant of the same genetics, grown under the same conditions? We all love smaller easier to handle plants but would they yield the same as the taller, larger plant?

 

[StoneyBud]

Thanks for chiming in Stoney....I thought it was from you that I had first heard of this but wasn't sure. Glad you cld shed some light on it.

You're very welcome, HL.

Competitive actions in the plant world are what make plants evolve. Its a fascinating subject and like I said earlier, its so in-depth, that there are millions of pages of research material out there about it.

Finding the articles that deal only with competitive lighting is more difficult, and many papers require that you buy the paper before reading anything but the synopsis.

 

[StoneyBud]

My tent has reflective flooring tho

So does mine but it is usually too dirty to reflect anything.....

Then during the seedling stage, where the floor could reflect light to the underside of the leaves, your plants would benefit from your covering that floor to stop the reflection.

The plants will stretch more if light is reflected to the underside of the leaves and also hits the top of the same leaves.

The plant *sees* this under-side lighting as being reflected from the tops of the leaves of a neighboring plant or plants. The plant will then send more stem-elongation hormone to its topmost branches, resulting in the plant growing faster and with longer inter-nodal length. The stems will also be weaker and thinner.

If the plants have reached a stage where the floor is no longer visible to the lights, then no light could reflect from the floor. This will end the problem if it has existed prior to that stage.



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[rotten_socks420]

Wow, ive always tried to explain this to my buddy but never could... now I can thank you.

 

[leafminer]

All those details about ferts etc are irrelevant to stretch.
In my own experience, stretch is directly related to the 'normal' final height of your strain, versus the height at which you went 12-12 and put it into flower.
In general, my experience over a wide range of growing conditions varying from 12-12 from seed, to free unrestricted growth, gave me this result:
(Since this is strain-dependent to some extent I will give an example of a strain with which I'm very familiar: Sensi Seed's Black Domina. 5Gall pot coco/ greenhouse natural solar)

1. Germ under 12-12 conditions = straight into flower.
The plant shows sex very early, typically 3 weeks from germination, and then goes into flower yielding a plant about 1 m tall in 10 weeks to harvest. The yield is roughly 2 oz. The plant can be regarded as 'stretching' continually because it's simultaneously in flower and growing.

2. The same seed germinates under 16/8 and is allowed to veg until it shows signs of sex, at which point it goes 12-12.
The plant grows to a well-branched specimen about 1.7m tall, then goes into flower, but does not stretch to any appreciable degree. The yield is roughly 4 oz.

I have the strong impression that when you force a plant into flowering by reducing its light hours to 12-12 before it would otherwise go into flower, the result is that the plant is forced into flower by the photoperiod, but will try to make up for it by stretching during flower as much as possible. There's not a great deal you can do about that if you insist on going 12-12 too early.

 

[woodydude]

I assume that he had accounted for the stretch in the design of his space and veg. time. So he didn't get the expected stretch and failed to efficiently take advantage of his grow space.

Will plants that didn't "stretch" yield as much as a taller stretched plant of the same genetics, grown under the same conditions? We all love smaller easier to handle plants but would they yield the same as the taller, larger plant?

Got it in one!!!! Thought there are other issues.

Here is where I am coming from, I was over visiting a friend a couple of days ago and saw his grow. I hadn't seen it for a long time and when I walked in, there were these huge monster plants staring me in the face, 6 footers. They were all cuttings I had given him around 3 months ago. Some of it was very bad stretch, for example, I have a 12" plant that is 3 weeks into flower that has double the bud of a cutting he has grown on that is my 12"s sister but his plant is nearly 3ft.
However, some of the bigger plants were magnificent including one that was 6ft and had a bud the size of a tennis ball at 3 weeks into flower. I know you will say this is a man thing, but the girth on the stems was huge and made mine feel totally inadequate. (Now I know how other men feel if they catch a glimpse in a public bathroom ;-) )
So seeing this got me thinking, why has my stretch disappeared, I am putting plants into flower at 12/15" expecting them to go mad and grow 1/200% but they are only growing maybe 50%. I have my lights dangling down with 6ft to go into that will not be needed.
All this is making it difficult to know when to put my girls into flower. If I grow them on to 3ft, then flower them, can I expect them to put on the 50% or the 200%??
If I were advising someone else, I would say take the height from the top of your bucket to the max height of your light, deduct 6" (for cool tubes, 12 without) then divide by 3, this is your safe flowering height. In my case, that would be 2ft to end up with a max 6ft plant.


But THG, you are right, I am not sure if it is a problem, I just need to flower the same strain a few times and find an average growth spurt.