Will a 12/12 from seed plant still GROW?

[bombbudpuffa]

Can a plant produce bud if it is grown from a seed under 12/12? Yes! But it will not compare to a plant that has been given time to mature before being flipped to 12/12.

Mine compare. Even my indica is at around 2 1/2 ft. I don't know...I think a lot of people haven't tried it and are giving advice on the subject.

 

[Runbyhemp]

25 minime colas would be grown to produce the yield of 5 plants?

Aint nothing minime about these colas. I got about 70% of the yield that I got from plants vegged for 6 weeks. When you take into consideration the extra plants that you get in the same space, and the extra light that these plants receive plus all cost saving it works out a lot more economical. Why would I be wasting my time growing a second time this way ?

Simply put a plant grown from seed that has vegged for 6-8 weeks will produce more bud than a plant grown from seed under 12/12 from start.

No one is disputing that. The yield will be less.

 

[Runbyhemp]

Sorry to double post. This also means that you do not need a seperate veg and flower room. You can just keep adding plants at any stage of development to the same room.

I've sat down and worked out how much I can harvest using both methods over the space of a year and the costs of each. 12/12 wins.

The only disadvantage is that there is a slightly higher percentage of males in the crop.

 

[Hick]

So, "in your opinion" if I put a seed in the ground in the middle of July or early August and it starts to flower immediatley, then this is unnatural ?

MJ matures in the fall, drops it's seed, lies dormant over winter, and begins growth in the early spring, :"naturally". .. "as it has for centuries"
So,.. my answer would be "yes". For a seed to be dropped from a plant and germinated in July or August, is definately not the natural order ..
I'm not egging for an arguement guys. But I'm not going to be easily swayed from my beliefes that it is not/can not be beneficial to the end quality.
I know some of you have been doing it with satisfactory results..."satisfactory" to your expectations. And that is fine, I'm not going to try to tell you tht you aren't satisfied. Immediate gratification has it's attraction..
Since I primarily utilize clones, I have no desire to try 12/12 from seed. I prefer to grow out any plants from seed, to full maturity, flower, and decide which(if any) are suitable as a "keeper" donor, after I have observed them throughout a full grow, and tested the final product to see if it meets the criteria.

Part of my concern lies in the long term effects of 12/12 from seed on the genetic integrity of high quality mj. "Early" flowering is NOT a desirable trait in the further progression of the breeding of drug quality pot.
The breeders that I have followed, been mentored by, learned from, believe that the secret lies in the recessive traits in 'late flowering males.. of all things.

 

[audix2359]

The only disadvantage is that there is a slightly higher percentage of males in the crop.

That's really surprising. I've read that reduced photoperiod early in the plants life is one of the main factors in influencing females. There's an article out there somewhere by a Dutch grower about 12/12 from seed and he claims to get 80% females this way. He uses this to argue against using clones.

Before I scrapped my grow that was 12/12 from seed I had 5 of 5 turn out to be female.

 

[Runbyhemp]

That's really surprising. I've read that reduced photoperiod early in the plants life is one of the main factors in influencing females. There's an article out there somewhere by a Dutch grower about 12/12 from seed and he claims to get 80% females this way. He uses this to argue against using clones.

Before I scrapped my grow that was 12/12 from seed I had 5 of 5 turn out to be female.

Perhaps if I put them under flouro for 3 weeks first I could get a higher percentage of girls. I meant to try it this time but I've just moved house so just got things up and running as quick as I could.

With HPS humidity is lower, temps are higher and there is less blue light. These are all contributing factors towards the sex ratio.

Next time I'll definitley start flouro first.

Hick, have you checked out that nomercy.nl thread ?

 

[Hick]

.I think a lot of people haven't tried it and are giving advice on the subject.

not trying to be a jerk, but..
"I" think that I have been growing, studying mj horticulture for 25 years. "Your" one time experience fails to impress me.
.. A "LOT" can be gained/learned from other peoples mistakes, that is how research comes into play. I don't have to switch my light regime around a few times in order to "know" that it will induce hermophradism. Someone else has already determined that for me.

 

[IV:XX]

Runby,

You obviously have an endless supply of seed...I can see the potential benefit if one has tons of seed...Otherwise, it would be a waste in my opinion...Seeds are not cheap!

Am I missing something? I think HICK is lost as well?

 

[Pot Belly]

Hey guys - anyone experienced with 12/12 have issues with poorly developing or sickly looking seedlings? Mine seem to go into a slump.

Or is is operator error? Other than the 12/12.

 

[Runbyhemp]

Rudy,

You obviously have an endless supply of seed...I can see the potential benefit if one has tons of seed...Otherwise, it would be a waste in my opinion...Seeds are not cheap!

Am I missing something?

I assume you are addressing me ? Hang on a minute. Just have to put my lipstick on and a skirt. Now, Rudy at your service :hubba:

What makes you think that I have an endless supply of seed ? I don't have money to be throwing around.

Even with the cost of seed, it still works out cheaper, and you have more weed. Does that make sense ?

Potbelly, my seeds do look a bit straggly for the first week or so because they're stretching for the HPS but they fill out well.

 

[Pot Belly]

This 12/12 concept is brought to you by a seller of seeds and his marketing department. Of course they would want you to buy all the seeds you need for your grows cause you don't keep mothers and clones...........What a great way to move lotsa seeds.

So if you were to choose this 12/12 method, you are forced to go through a lot of seeds. Lot of $ and risk of getting "lost" at the border. Not to speak of all the excitement that could bring you at your house.

Or you make your own batch of seeds on a single bud location since you have plenty of males and females.

If you chose to make your own seeds perpetually, what would be the genetic outcome of your seeds say after 5 or 10 generations? Does the weed slowly change into a new strain, reverting back to its original form of hemp weed?

That is probably a major hang-up with the 12/12 concept - Do I buy seeds or make them?

 

[IV:XX]

This 12/12 concept is brought to you by a seller of seeds and his marketing department. Of course they would want you to buy all the seeds you need for your grows cause you don't keep mothers and clones...........What a great way to move lotsa seeds.

So if you were to choose this 12/12 method, you are forced to go through a lot of seeds. Lot of $ and risk of getting "lost" at the border. Not to speak of all the excitement that could bring you at your house.

Or you make your own batch of seeds on a single bud location since you have plenty of males and females.

If you chose to make your own seeds perpetually, what would be the genetic outcome of your seeds say after 5 or 10 generations? Does the weed slowly change into a new strain, reverting back to its original form of hemp weed?

That is probably a major hang-up with the 12/12 concept - Do I buy seeds or make them?

It gives the false idea that one is saving money because you do noit have grow as long...The reality is it is not cheaper. I agree, if you have an endless source of seeds then it might be worth it with some strains. One would plant 50 seeds to get 25 females to have 25 minime buds to equal a 5 plant grow with 6-8 week veg. This would get very expensive!

 

[Runbyhemp]

If I were making seeds, I would grow the mother in the traditional way.

One would plant 50 seeds to get 25 females to have 25 minime buds to equal a 5 plant grow with 6-8 week veg. This would get very expensive!

You tell me, logically, how you ended up with these numbers. You're just pulling numbers out of the air

 

[md.apothecary]

If you chose to make your own seeds perpetually, what would be the genetic outcome of your seeds say after 5 or 10 generations? Does the weed slowly change into a new strain, reverting back to its original form of hemp weed?

For outdoor growers, strains that have been acclimated for years in their locale are indispensible. Many of these growers have spent decades perfecting a strain for their exact climate, yet all of this work can be lost instantly as a result of a bust or simply not having anyone to pass them down to. Cannabis genetics can be maintained for many years simply by keeping a clone alive, however this doesn't do much for preserving the genetic diversity of a strain. Ideally, seedlines should be both preserved through long term storage and being grown out and seeded each year. Inbreeding depression Much myth and misinformation is spread in marijuana literature regarding inbreeding depression in cannabis populations. As a result, much of the genetics on the market today is merely a collection of cross after cross of different varieties with little effort towards stabilizing unique traits. Proof that marijuana can be successfully inbred lies in examples of inbred lines like Skunk #1 or Northern Lights, which have shown no signs of inbreeding depression after decades of incestuous crosses. Understanding how marijuana has evolved helps to explain this. In countries where marijuana originates it has evolved alongside humans, often being maintained in small family gardens amongst other food and medicine crops. Much of today's gene pool originated in Afghanistan, where cannabis was grown like this in small family plots for generations, until the advent of large fields in the 70's and 80's. Plant phenotypes varied slightly from one valley to the next, and the pollen carried by wind from the slightly different gene pool of cannabis in the next valley maintained population vigour and prevented inbreeding depression. We can reproduce this scenario easily ourselves by maintaining several lines of the same strain, crossing them into each other every few years. For example, when you grow out a pack of ten true breeding seeds pick the nicest female and seed it with two or more different males (marking which branch was pollinated by which male). Seed from each cross must be kept separate, and future generations kept from crossing with other lines. Every third or fourth generation these lines are crossed together and new lines brought out of the resulting seeds. Some of the seeds from each generation should be saved for long-term storage in case of accidental cross-pollination or crop loss down the road. Isolation distances Whether growing indoors or out, isolation distances are something that you should always be aware of. Marijuana is a wind pollinated plant, meaning that pollen is carried by wind from the male to the female recipient, sometimes over very long distances. The recent legalization of hemp, although a major step forward, has caused some concern for marijuana growers. These fields consist of thousands of plants which generate an immense amount of pollen, which will seed marijuana just as easily as it will hemp. Other growers in your area and other strains which you yourself may be trying to keep pure are also possible contaminators to breeding projects. Isolation distances will vary depending on geography, wind currents and vegetation coverage. However a safe rule of thumb is to isolate outdoor crops from each other and hemp fields by at least a half mile. Indoors this is not as much of a concern, as males can be watched carefully and covered with a paper enclosure to prevent pollen from drifting to other plants. A question of latitude The most popular theory of the evolution of cannabis is that all cannabis originated in the Himalayas and spread gradually throughout the world. Under varying human and environmental pressures cannabis has evolved into all ends of the spectrum from low THC long fibered hemp strains to couch-locking Indicas. Latitude has definitely played a key role in this matter, influencing THC levels as well as ratios of THC to CBD. Most drug strains originate between 37 North and 35 South of the equator, with some of the highest quality strains coming from very near the equator (most notable Southeast Asia at 10-20 North). As you get up into the more Northern latitudes (like Russia), cultivated and feral cannabis leans more towards the hemp end of the spectrum, with low THC and high CBD. This makes the job of maintaining marijuana varieties outdoors at common North American latitudes of 44-50 North a little more complicated. Without selection for high THC parents, pure strain marijuana can drift towards phenotypes of its hempen cousins. Put simply, as the latitude is not exerting pressure on the gene pool to uphold its high THC traits, human influence must step in by diligently selecting the most potent plants as parents for future generations. Legendary strains like Matanuska Thunderfuck (bred outdoors in Alaska) and Friesland Indica (outdoors for Northern Holland) are living proof that this high THC trait can be maintained at Northern latitudes. Common vegetable seed saving techniques, like open pollination and collecting seeds from many different plants then mixing them together, must be avoided. This could likely be the reason for the low THC nature of many of the strains coming from large Swiss fields in past years. Up until recently these fields were grown out and seeded freely with little goal in mind other than acclimatization. Long term storage As seeds are living things they have a life span and decline in vigour as they age. For medium term storage an air-tight container in the refrigerator works well. Long term storage is the best way to preserve these special strains for tomorrows growers, and for this freezers work great, provided a few rules are carefully followed. Most important is that the seed be dried below the 8% moisture level, as above this the water in the seed will expand upon freezing and burst the cell walls. This drying is done with the use of silica gel and an airtight container. The gel can be obtained from any vegetable seed company and many gardening stores. The seeds and gel are sealed in the same container and the gel will change color, indicating the moisture that it has absorbed from the seed. Seeds should be wrapped in tissue paper and sealed in an airtight container before being put into the freezer, as frozen seeds are very fragile and the paper will protect the seed from shattering if bumped. Seeds stored like this will retain vigour and high germination ratios for long periods of time. When thawing seeds for use, allow them to fully adjust to room temperature before opening the container. This will prevent unwanted condensation from forming on the seed surface. Allow the seeds to regain most of their original moisture level by sitting open for a few days before being germinated. Stand Tall Once a cross has reached the F5 or F6 generation it can be considered an inbred line and can be relatively easily maintained using the above techniques. Many of the strains listed in catalogues are inbred lines and may or may not be indicated as such. If this is a strain that a seed company has put years of time and work into bringing to this point it is considered unfair to reproduce their work and sell it yourself, but there is nothing wrong with preserving their genetics for yourself or to pass on to future generations should it no longer be commercially available. Preserving cannabis genetic under the current legal climate is as honourable a pastime as there is. So stand up, be proud, just don't get counted.

edit: info above was from a word document from back in the day. However, the only info I could find with this info was http://mellowgold.com/grow/index.html, though this material is not originally from them, I had gotten it from OG some years back.

 

[shortyrocks1]

I think clearly each method has its place. I agree that if you are paying good money for seeds and you dont really have any height restrictions or a time crunch then absolutely veg for 6-8 weeks then flip. But for some, and i am in this category, i have unlimited bagseed, and i am growing in the top of my closet, and i dont have money for a huge light setup, so for me 12/12 is the clear choice. I can have plants of all ages in the same area at the same time so i can provide myself with a constant supply (hopefully) and that is my ultimate goal so for me...im gonna give 12/12 a whirl.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[DLtoker]

Hey Md., Can you provide us with your source?

 

[Ekoostik_Hookah]

sry hick, i wasnt trying to bust yer balls or nothing, i was just stating what i believed.
and for the sake of science, i will post pictures all the way to my harvest, so we can see how it goes. i will also post a dry weight of my 7 girls when i am done.

Now Iv:xx, i beg to differ that it is FACT, that the longer you vegg, the bigger the yeild.
if you vegged one normal plant for 2-3 months, and i vegged a plant for 1 month, and then LST the plant, i bet i would get a higher yeild than your single cola plant. I really think it is all how the grower does it.....maybe thats a fact???

even if you vegged for 6 months, there would bee so much foliage, that only the top of the plant would have decent bud anyways. i think it gets to the point where you over Vegg., as weird as that sounds.

 

[bombbudpuffa]

will the plants still grow in height and get bigger?

Yes. Some more or less than others. Just to answer the original question. If you pick 12/12 from seed or veg first...good luck!

 

[Ekoostik_Hookah]

and isnt the 12/12 method beyond argument?
Hasnt it already been proven that it works.
It has already been prooved that if you do it right, that the out come is good., I am a Firm believe now, MD posted a pic of an all CFL grow, under 12/12. and the buds were insane....it looked like it was grown under HPS.
I do believe some people need to do a little more research, read a few more Threads, before they Knock the 12/12 from seed method.

 

[md.apothecary]

in all fairness, this is what research consists of... everyone here still has lots to know, no one individual knows it all. Again, like with any experiment, variables play a large factor in EVERYTHING. From altitude, to smog, to heat, to cooling, to lights, to soils, to nutes, everything is going to be different.

My GH nutes might be a microgram off from your GH nutes and this could be disasterous in my situation, but not yours because all the variables play a part... it's a butterfly effect. No one person is correct. :doh: