I can't stop mainlining (Manifold first timer)

[sopappy]

Last night: 6.1 570 .84
This am: 6.1 570 .84 but down 2 quarts
topped up with pH 5.5
6.0 480 .71
(water diluted the nute concentration?)

I'm crowding the bucket a bit with the back-ups in dirt but I'm in a bit of a jam
Week 6 began yesterday

View attachment 101_0003.JPG

 

[Hushpuppy]

For most hydro growers, the pH will shift up over time. For me it shifts down over time. I think this is because most of the growers who comment on this use GH nutrients, or one of the other nutrients (all of which have pH buffers in their solutions to help balance the pH). I use AN's Jungle Juice 3part which has no pH buffers in it. regardless of which direction your pH drifts (that doesn't matter) you want to determine which way it shifts over time so that you can set the initial pH at the opposite end of the allowable spectrum so that it can drift over to the other end as the nutrients are taken in.

When you add un nuted water to your reservoir, the concentration of the nutrients in the total solution will automatically drop. I think you are getting erratic pH fluxuations because your nutrient concentration is too low. 500-600ppm is low for vegging plants, and it is very low for flowering plants. The plants are sucking up the nutrients within a couple days, and the pH isn't able to balance because there is pH buffer left behind in the depleted water. You need to bump it up. I would increase it to 800ppm then in about 4-5 days bump it up again to 1000ppm.

I think the Raw ingredients is interesting, and with some study and experimentation it can be applied well. But for me, its a little too much tinkering. I have very little trouble with the Jungle Juice making my plants happy. I still have to do some tinkering as it has no pH buffers, so I am having to manually deal with the shifting pH, but my plants love it, and It isn't so much tinkering that its a pain. It keeps me in the grow room enough to keep a good eye on the kids, but not so much that the tedious work that could get really messed up if I smoke a bowl before adding a few mg of potassium. I have a bad memory as it is, I don't want to add more little things to remember so that I don't damage the plants by adding too much of a certain element or not enough of another.

 

[Hushpuppy]

Let me summarize that: Pappy you need to increase the amount of nutrients (slowly) to get to 1000ppm. Then you need to set your pH at the opposite end of the acceptable range for hydro, which is 5.3-6.2 so if your pH is drifting up over time, you need to set the pH at the lower end.

Yes aeration will absolutely affect the pH of the water. That is because you are dissolving atmospheric chemicals into the water when you aerate. Those chemicals, like hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen, all interact with the chemical in the solution. It doesn't really matter which way it makes it go. What matters is that you get the full spectrum swing(drift) across the acceptable pH range. If that happens every time, the plants will remain healthy. That is one reason why some people in soilless have a lot of trouble, because they don't get as good of a pH drift all the way across the pH range.

 

[Joe420Camel]

I drift down (too)

my guess is the water, I use distilled. (no buffers at all)
you guys use RO or tap or distilled or ?? (NOT tap I bet)

regardless, drift up or down, it don't really matter. just know which way your system wants to go and start at the other end.

Like a car that's out of alignment... pulls right or left, don't matter, steer to the other side of the lane and keep it between the lines (~5.4 - 6.2)

PS
Plants look AWESOME :icon_smile: !!
:48:

 

[Joe420Camel]

.

As for feeding, I try to do about the same thing...
Fill her plate at the start of a week, nothing but water (and pH adjust as needed) between platefuls.

Yes, the concentration (ppm) will go down over the week as she removes nutrient/salt from the solution just like the water level goes down as she drinks.
But unlike the water which you refill daily+, only replenish nutes once a week.
Your starting solution should be in the 1000+ ppm range to start and then watch how/what she does.
If she gobbles it down to 800 in 24 hours you know she's hungry and you could refill her plate potentially sooner and or at a higher ppm
If she doesn't want any and it sits at 1000 and her leaf tips start to brown/burn you know 1000 too much and you need to dilute the res somehow
If it only goes down a little and the leaf tips are good... you found her sweet-spot.
Don't get too excited it's a moving target and she will change what and how much she wants depending on where in the life cycle

:48:

 

[Gooch]

AHAH! "cut it back to 1000 or 1100 and then you spoon feed it"
So you still use your favourite nute but you halve the ppms, check.
Now then, does he give you a timeline of when to tweak with the packages?
(interesting find, Gooch, well done!)

Yes he does, and he is doing live classes every week for free also and you can ask questions etc.. online
in the video i posted he explains when and how, just consider everything he says is for cannibis regardless of what he says its for lol
I was only paying attention super close to the timeline i am in currently i have seedling and flowering, so i have on hand phosphorus, amino acids,seaweed, and humic acid, this weekend i will get nitrogen, and potassium and maybe some yucca but that **** is so expensive and incredible

 

[Gooch]

Yes i agree with the ph ranges i set mine to 5.5 at around 1100ppm or 2.0 ec then i let it drift up till around 5.9 and it hangs out there, until i dilute it and then add more nutes

 

[sopappy]

HP, Joe, thanks, I'm amassing some great notes here. The moving target analogy is perfect.
I did a 'reset' last night. HP, I'm not at 800-1000 because she was only drinking, and my notes say, if only drinking, ppms were too high so I halved to 530 and pH of 6.0 (room going either way)
5.9 tonight but no change in ppm as usual.
Are you guys LED?

.. I got royally confused there, no dope tonight :-(
sorry, I gave the totally wrong reason why I diluted the full strength nutes last night... I AM going to 1100, just NOT overnight.

 

[sopappy]

Yes i agree with the ph ranges i set mine to 5.5 at around 1100ppm or 2.0 ec then i let it drift up till around 5.9 and it hangs out there, until i dilute it and then add more nutes

I forget... LED or HPS?

 

[Gooch]

HPS and LED, I dont know who told you that"'m not at 800-1000 because she was only drinking, and my notes say, if only drinking, ppms were too high so I halved to 530" but you are definitely not giving them enough nutes if you were your buds would be bigger, you are basically giving it 25% of the recommended amount i suggest 50%, you diont have much time left

 

[sopappy]

Yes he does, and he is doing live classes every week snipped

I sit spellbound listening to the guy, he picked the right vocation.
the yucca makes a foliar spray coat the leaf instead of beading, who the hell figured that one out? fascinating stuff this
I think the acid is the star though, I want to try that one day

 

[sopappy]

HPS and LED, I dont know who told you that"'m not at 800-1000 because she was only drinking, and my notes say, if only drinking, ppms were too high so I halved to 530" but you are definitely not giving them enough nutes if you were your buds would be bigger, you are basically giving it 25% of the recommended amount i suggest 50%, you diont have much time left

.. I got royally confused there, no dope tonight :-(
sorry, I gave the totally wrong reason why I diluted the full strength nutes last night... I AM going to 1100, just NOT overnight.

 

[sopappy]

.

As for feeding, I try to do about the same thing...
Fill her plate at the start of a week, nothing but water (and pH adjust as needed) between platefuls.

Yes, the concentration (ppm) will go down over the week as she removes nutrient/salt from the solution just like the water level goes down as she drinks.
But unlike the water which you refill daily+, only replenish nutes once a week.
Your starting solution should be in the 1000+ ppm range to start and then watch how/what she does.
If she gobbles it down to 800 in 24 hours you know she's hungry and you could refill her plate potentially sooner and or at a higher ppm
If she doesn't want any and it sits at 1000 and her leaf tips start to brown/burn you know 1000 too much and you need to dilute the res somehow
If it only goes down a little and the leaf tips are good... you found her sweet-spot.
Don't get too excited it's a moving target and she will change what and how much she wants depending on where in the life cycle

:48:

I've never seen a hint of browning at the tips, she just doesn't eat.
Drinks 2 quarts a day, nibbles maybe, the dog just don't hunt.

 

[Hushpuppy]

Let me throw a monkey wrench into you thoughts about PPM. I feed at about 1300-1400ppm right now in flower(and I use HPS. LED lighting will require less nutrients than HPS but no less than half). After a new rez change and there is new nutrients present, within 3-5 days the pH will cycle (for mine it goes from 5.9-6.1 down to 4.5-5.0 before I readjust the pH) I can check the PPM and find that it has risen rather than fallen. I am not surprised that you see very little change in your PPM level. There is enough "stuff" in the mix that will trigger the meter to read the PPM. Nutrient salts are always present in synthetic nutrients, and these salts conduct electricity very well. The electrical flow through the solution is what the meter uses to measure PPM. EC stands for electrical conductivity.

So the bottom line is that you really can't go by the PPM meter as a measure of what your plants are eating. You can and should use it to make sure of how much you are putting in, but I actually use mine to tell when I am getting significant salt buildup. But what you are seeing is because the water is being used and there isn't a lot of nutes in the solution, the measure being a proportion of an amount of conductive elements in the solution to the amount of water in that solution.

So if you put in 5 gallons of water to a system and it has a PPM of 500 and the plants use 50% of the nutrients, and drinks 50% of the water, the proportion of nutrients to water is still going to give you 500ppm reading. Actually, depending on the amount and type of salts used in the making of the nutrients, the PPM may actually rise.

This is just to help you understand some of the chemistry of growing. If you are under LED then the plants won't need 1200-1400ppm. They would need more like about 900ppm during flower.

 

[sopappy]

snipped, notes taken

This is just to help you understand some of the chemistry of growing. If you are under LED then the plants won't need 1200-1400ppm. They would need more like about 900ppm during flower.

Indeed, that does help. I'm obsessing with details and would probably do better without the metre!!
Anyways....I did another change this morning
6.1 1040... close enough

Keep looking over your shoulder, Gooch, I'm going to give you a race!

 

[Joe420Camel]

.

One really shouldn't compare ppm's without topping off (and giving a little time).

Its a ratio of water to salt.

2 items 2 inputs

PPM
no eat, no drink = no change
yes eat, yes drink = no change
yes eat, no drink = ppm DOWN
no eat, yes drink = ppm UP

-BUT-

if you don't top-off before you take a reading, you wont/cant see the ppm's going down.
in fact, if she eats a little and drinks a LOT they will appear to be going UP before top-off, when actually that are going down.


EDIT
obviously its not all quite THAT simple, but from a PPM meter's point of view only, it IS

:48:

 

[Gooch]

If we are in a race i hope you win, and i will help you win, if i can. I am so giddy about my first hydro grow its so much easier then dirt, at least for me as a noob, I wish i could use dirt although its heavy and makes it harder to move it around. I think hydro is where i will stick it out.

 

[sopappy]

.

One really shouldn't compare ppm's without topping off (and giving a little time).
<<<<<<<<<DAMMIT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Its a ratio of water to salt.

2 items 2 inputs

PPM
no eat, no drink = no change
yes eat, yes drink = no change <<<<< whoa, this explains a lot
yes eat, no drink = ppm DOWN <<<<ahah!, my girl's a lush, never see this
no eat, yes drink = ppm UP <<< seen it, that's when I wrote 'voodoo'

-BUT-

if you don't top-off before you take a reading, you wont/cant see the ppm's going down.
in fact, if she eats a little and drinks a LOT they will appear to be going UP before top-off, when actually that are going down.

<voodoo explained,>>>>>>>>>



EDIT
obviously its not all quite THAT simple, but from a PPM meter's point of view only, it IS

<I'm a cheat sheet guy, dummy down guy, that yes/no thing is excellent>
:48:

sunuvabitch, I knew if I kept whining long enough....
My routine *WAS* to check ph, ppm, and record them.
I then measure the rez level and it's almost always down 2 qts
I then decide how to pH the water to encourage the ramp.
Small wonder I was confused with the results.
Thank you!

 

[sopappy]

If we are in a race i hope you win, and i will help you win, if i can. I am so giddy about my first hydro grow its so much easier then dirt, at least for me as a noob, I wish i could use dirt although its heavy and makes it harder to move it around. I think hydro is where i will stick it out.

hahaha, no losers in these races
I'm still ironing out kinks but frankly, this is the biggest plant I've ever grown already. I think I can make this work.
Funny you mention dirt being hard to move around.... it least you CAN move it. My plant stretched and HP helped me salvage a scrog type thing but it's in my VEG room... try moving that!
I'm going to try pellets only instead of dirt with my leftovers this go-round.

 

[Gooch]

hahaha, no losers in these races
I'm still ironing out kinks but frankly, this is the biggest plant I've ever grown already. I think I can make this work.
Funny you mention dirt being hard to move around.... it least you CAN move it. My plant stretched and HP helped me salvage a scrog type thing but it's in my VEG room... try moving that!
I'm going to try pellets only instead of dirt with my leftovers this go-round.

my current grow is in clay pebbles, they are ok but they are dirty. I have high hopes for this Sure To grow medium, one piece no ph interaction and supposed to make for crazy roots, o yea and crazy lightweight so my second grow will be another first for using the medium, should be interesting. On a side note it cost me 3 times as much for clay pebbles as it did for the sure to grow