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Need Help with Nute Program

raoulduke2.0

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This is my current nutrient program, broken down for 8 week plants. I was hoping some of you fine people might be able to shed some light on the inadequacies of it. :D Let me know what you find. I am using the Advanced Nutrient 3 part in 3 gallon pots in an ebb and flow system. I water 3 times daily during light hours only. The ammendments listed are Fulvic Acid, Humic Acid, Enzymes, kelp extract, Potassium silicate, Big Bud , Overdrive, and a Cal-mag which is just used to raise the base ppm to 75-100.

I am finding that the last 2 weeks of flowering always bring reduced vigor of growth, and the formation of a lot of bracts (small waterleaf) all over the vast majority of buds. This is especially the case with the White Widow, and Congo Haze strains I have been growing, but often is the case in several (but never all) of every strain I grow. The inconsistency made me look at the possibility of light leaks, but nothing to be found. Heat stress isn't a problem, nor a higher N ratio than P and K. These are the only things I can definitely say that might have been the culprit, but no such luck. I feel like resin content and potency peak so much earlier than bud density or size (Which are more than adequate), that there must be something fundamentally wrong with either WHAT i'm adding, how much, and at what point in the life cycle I'm adding it. For example, I can't find a single biological reason, with yield and quality as the most important factors, why I should ever add Potassium Silicate after the 4th or 5th week of Flowering. It makes my bud taste funny after that, and does not seem to affect the yield in a positive way after that point. I guess I am hoping for a glaring inconsistency to jump out at someone the way that did at me upon reflection and the review of some records. I might have an equal ration of Grow to Bloom and Micro, but I feel as though Mel Frank was on to something with his analysis of the parts of specific nutrient requirements per million required by the plant in all stages of growth. I will try to find the link to it, as it is interesting and very thorough, unlike the bulk of the work published under that name.
 

raoulduke2.0

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Week 1 Flowering

¼ tsp/ Gallon Cal-Mag
1 tsp/ Gallon F-1
1/8 tsp Gallon Silika Majik
4ml/ Gallon Hygrozyme
6ml / Gallon AN Micro
6ml / Gallon AN Grow
7ml / Gallon AN Bloom

Approximate Target PPM = 900

Target pH = 5.8

Feed Tea on Day 1 of Week 1 Flowering
Week 2 Flowering 12 hours of light

¼ tsp/ Gallon Cal-Mag
1/2 tsp / Gallon F-1
1 tsp / Gallon Liquid Karma
1/8 tsp/ Gallon Silika Majik
4ml/ Gallon Hygrozyme
6ml/ Gallon Big Bud
7ml / Gallon AN Micro
7ml / Gallon AN Grow
7ml / Gallon AN Bloom

Approximate Target PPM = 1050

Target pH = 5.8

Week 3 Flowering 12 hours of light

¼ tsp/ Gallon Cal-Mag
1 tsp/ Gallon F-1 L
1.5 tsp/ Gallon Liquid Karma
1/8 tsp/ Gallon Silika Majik (can be used up to this amount like pH up during the week)
4ml/ Gallon Hygrozyme
6ml/ Gallon Big Bud
7ml / Gallon AN Micro
7ml / Gallon AN Grow
7ml / Gallon AN Bloom

Approximate Target PPM = 1100

Target pH = 5.7


Week 4 Flowering

¼ tsp/ Gallon Cal-Mag
1 tsp/ Gallon F-1 -
1.5 tsp/ Gallon Liquid Karma
1/8 tsp/ Gallon Silika Majik
4ml/ Gallon Hygrozyme
8ml/ Gallon Big Bud
8ml / Gallon AN Micro
8ml / Gallon AN Grow
8ml / Gallon AN Bloom

Approximate Target PPM = 1250

Target pH = 5.6

Week 5 Flowering

¼ tsp/ Gallon Cal-Mag
1 tsp/ Gallon F-1
2 tsp/ Gallon Liquid Karma
4ml/ Gallon Hygrozyme
8ml/ Gallon Big Bud
8ml / Gallon AN Micro
8ml / Gallon AN Grow
8ml / Gallon AN Bloom

Approximate Target PPM = 1300

Target pH = 5.5

Flushing Solution for Mid Cycle 12 hours of light

1 tsp/ Gallon FlushKleen
1 tsp / Gallon F-1
8ml/ Gallon Hygrozyme
2ml / Gallon AN Micro
2ml / Gallon AN Grow
3ml / Gallon AN Bloom

Feed this solution for 2-4 days.

Approximate Target PPM = 300

Actual =

Target pH = 5.5

Week 6 Flowering 11 hours of light

¼ tsp/ Gallon Cal-Mag
1 tsp/ Gallon F-1
2 tsp/ Gallon Liquid Karma
8ml/ Gallon Hygrozyme
8ml/ Gallon Overdrive
8ml / Gallon AN Micro
8ml / Gallon AN Grow
8ml / Gallon AN Bloom

Approximate Target PPM = 1350

Target pH = 5.4

Week 7 Flowering

¼ tsp/ Gallon Cal-Mag
1 tsp/ Gallon F-1
2 tsp/ Gallon Liquid Karma
8ml/ Gallon Hygrozyme
8ml/ Gallon Overdrive
8ml / Gallon AN Micro
7ml / Gallon AN Grow
8ml / Gallon AN Bloom

Approximate Target PPM = 1250

Target pH = 5.4

Week 8 Flowering

1 tsp / Gallon F-1
8ml/ Gallon Hygrozyme
6ml/ Gallon Overdrive
6ml / Gallon AN Micro
6ml / Gallon AN Grow
6ml / Gallon AN Bloom

Approximate Target PPM = 800

Target pH = 5.3

Flushing Solution: Finishing Flowers

1 tsp / Gallon FlushKleen
1 tsp / Gallon F-1
8ml/ Gallon Hygrozyme
3ml / Gallon AN Micro
3ml / Gallon AN Grow
3ml / Gallon AN Bloom

Approximate Target PPM = 300

Target pH = 5.6


:hubba:
 

BudLover#69

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:holysheep: My eyes crossed just looking at that! lol,,, Im just a simple closet grower! some potting soil, menure, perlite and Low PHd water 5.0 to 6.0 range. That is all I use and my bud is just as good any top shelf stuff here in CA. Good luck sorry no help, it just always trips me out to see you guys get so technical. :confused2: :smoke1:
 

Old_SSSC_Guy

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i dunno brother, but 8 weeks is barely flowering time for many/most strains. most strains i grow 8 weeks veg and 8 weeks flower. if you are running a 8 week cycle i'll guess you are starting clones.

you seem to have quite a witches brew of nutes there. like budlover i go in soil, and i keep it as simple and safe as possible. Fox Farm Gro Big for veggie, Big Bloom (and tiger bloom) for flowering. i am a big fan of the KISS principle: "keep it simple stupid".

the more you add to your nute program the more you risk going wrong. there's always room to tweak your mix down the line but starting with the basics will get you a healthy and happy plant...

just an opinion...
 

hero4u2b

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LMAO Raoulduke u gotta be joking no? I kept scrolling until my finger got tiired.. Im sticking with keeping it simples as well.. Hero
 

OGKushman

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copy and paste much?

i had no idea a single post could hold so many words. :confused:


so what was the question?
 
W

woodydude

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I use AN sensi nutes and my experience of them tells me you may be mixing your nutes too richly.
I didnt get any nute burn when using my nutes but once I started giving my plants HALF the amount stated on the bottle, my plants grew MUCH BETTER with no deficiencies!

Your "plan" is great, very thorough by the look of it, but I didnt read it all, I am 46 and only have 30 or so years left. I would suggest you reduce the amount of "add on's" and just use the basic 3-part until you discover what is causing your problems.
Green mojo. W
 

Growdude

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raoulduke2.0 said:
I have been having some problems with the plants finishing strongly and perhaps One of you knows why....
Problem with them finishing strongly? :confused2:

I dont know about that but the AN advertising department must love you.
 
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:eek: WOW--I cannot even begin to imagine using that many additives.....

My plants seem to finish strong using just GH Flora nutes. Sometimes I throw in a little Carbo-Load, but I am not really convinced that it makes any real difference.
 

raoulduke2.0

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The only parts of my nute program that would "simplify" things to remove would be my flowering ammendments. Fulvic acid is not something that complicates a hute program, nor is Humics, nor a low content of Cal-mag, nor beneficial bacteria. The cal-mag just gets the water up to 75 ppm or so, which is that cal-mag content of most water used in hydroponics.

This does actually come out to be about half of what AN asks for most of the grow, btw.

And the 8 week schedule is just a starting point. I don't harvest until trichomes are 50% cloudy.
 

raoulduke2.0

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So you mean to tell me that the cumulative knowledge that you have to offer regarding plant nutrition is to feed an inexpensive chemical 3 part? And that I should feed a carbohydrate supplement and grow in soil? Keep it simple stupid? Really?(deep breath)

I could find a dozen companies that make products that are "all I need" purportedly. The purpose of this forum, I thought was to share ideas. Not rhetoric. I'd rather have my post deleted and my name changed to Jizzmopper than have it shrugged off as "overcomplicated". I have a reason for every word on every page of that program, and all that I asked was that if you disagreed with any part of it, then YOU give me the REASON why.
Or don't. But don't complain because I posted a lot of words. That's dummy talk. It's a fairly simple post, it just repeats itself with slightly different permutations of the nute ratios.

"My plants seem to finish strong using just GH Flora nutes. Sometimes I throw in a little Carbo-Load, but I am not really convinced that it makes any real difference."

I have gone the lone 3 part route many times. I have done the lucas system. I understand that simple is good, but there is nothing helpful about encouraging me to go backwards. I don't want to grow soil because it is messy, and easily contaminable. It also does not drain consistently. I use hydroton.
What good are carbs without a rhizosphere TEEMING with microbial growth? Even unhealthy plants don't have a problem producing carbohydrates. I always thought the carbs were for the microflora, not the plants. And if you see no difference, then why would you A: continue to feed it, and B:recommend it as the SOLE amendment to use other than a 3 part?

I put a lot of work into this, so it'd be nice if you all wouldn't just throw up stock answers. People always complain about the same questions being asked over and again, but the same answers given thoughtlessly would seem to be more damaging to forum functionality. Perhaps I posted in the wrong forum, or simply desire insight that is not as ubiquitous as i had hoped....
 

Old_SSSC_Guy

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Raoul, i did not mean to insult you with my KISS comment, or why you choose to take such offense from the honest and friendly answers here i don't know. maybe you should have just posted it as "this is my recipe and if you don't agree with me you are wrong". personally i got a good laugh from your mixes.

what a negative bunch of baggage you carry around...
 

raoulduke2.0

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I mean no disrespect. But it would seem that the majority of people that responded weren't particularly interested in reading the formula, and posted anyway. The rest were helpful. And I appreciate the KISS idea, and I am starting clones in fact. I am where I am because I HAVEN'T thought about these things as deeply as I could. That's why I'm here. I wanted help, and the responses lean towards "simplify", but no specifics are given. The reason I posted this thread in the first place, is because I wanted to simplify my program. To tell me to do so is redundant, without specifics.
My "witches brew" is mostly comprised of the things you need to keep beneficial bacteria alive in an ebb and flow system. Removing the fulvic acid doesn't seem necessary, as it doesn't effect my PPM or ph, and is being fed below recommended label amounts. The H-2 is simply a more refined form of the fulvic, so the same applies. Liquid Karma is by far the most effective tonic I've come across. It significantly decreases my rooting time in the Root Riot cubes. As I said, the Big Bud and the Overdrive, much as any flowering supplements, are potentially unnecessary, but I have seen a very significant spike in yields since they were implemented. If any of these things are "detrimental" to growth, I can't help but wonder why? Simply because we can get results with a 3 part and nothing else, doesn't mean that it is the best way, and in fact I would argue that it is only a jumping off point.
I don't seek to argue, I just ask that you give a rationale for you opinion, lest it be relegated to redundancy. I appreciate your post, and your concern for the forum, and friendly is great. I just see it as, I asked those that had input to give it, and for the most part, I recieved mostly criticism, not for my formula (aside from your snide remark), but instead for my attempt to have you all read it. That part is optional, so if you don't have anything to add, then don't add anything. How's that for keeping it simple?
 
S

SKAGITMAGIC

Guest
Maybe you'd have better luck on the Hydroponics Forum rather than General Indoor,I think the general means mostly dirt. I personally can't answer any of your questions, My nutes cost 30 bucks and last 10 grows, Plant Marvel Products, if it's the blue stuff its for the flowers,the greens stuffs for veggy.A teaspoon in a Gallon of tap water. I don't even own a PH testing kit.lol but seriously, have some fun, read your signature, don't sweat the petty stuff. Ps I honestly tried reading your list of stuff and I'm to ignorant to even attempt a grow like that, it would keep me awake nights!!
 

raoulduke2.0

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A great deal of the specific mention of pH adjustment and the order in which I add things resulted in a solid year and a half of never having a stable pH. Adding my ammendments first, and making sure that the pH has totally leveled off before I measure it, have made a world of difference. I do apologize for my formatting. If anything is redundant, it's the dummy proof reiteration of the same mundane processes within each mixture. I will see if I can't simplify the textual manifestation of my formula, so that it'll be clearer how I might simplify the liquid version of my formula. :D
 

stevetberry

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Good job on the detail, I also put a lot of detail in my grows and have had problems that I just had to figure out for myself and by reading all the posts on this website. There is great knowledge here from people like THG and Hampster Lewis just to mention a few. Keep in mind that these are just my opinions and that there is evidence in both directions for what I will comment on. First off I use GH 3 part and some additives and am not familiar with the brand that you mentioned but if it is similar to GH 3 part I think that your ratios are off. For example from week 2 to week 7 of flowering this is my program:
Everthing is per 4 gallons of water ( I do use RO water therefore I do not use the CalMag +):
40 ml Micro
20 ml Grow
60 ml Bloom
40 ml FloraBlend
20 ml Liquid KoolBloom
4 ml Floralicious Plus
Target ppm is 1460 to 1500
Adjust ph to 5.5
Other things that you do that I do not do are the foliar feeding and cutting the lights below 12 hours whenever you said you do that. Anyway I have only been growing for about 2 years but that is my 2 cents, hope this helps.
 
W

woodydude

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Hi again Raoul,
I hope you took my reply in the nature it was intended. I am not a botanist, so giving you a detailed answer would not be possible for me.
I too had ph problems for a long time and have only recently solved them. My issue was mixing the nutes far too strong, double what they should have been in fact. Since realising this my ph has been much more stable, in veg around 5.8 to 6.1 and the plants seem happier than they have ever been. Likewise flowering, only it more or less stays at 5.8 constantly. I have to say I am using AN Sensi "ph perfect" nutrients though. I start with my water, add part A, leave for 10 minuted, then add part B, leave for half an hour, ph (I am not meant to but I do) and all is good.

Since you were suffering from deficiencies, my solution would be to go back to basics and just use the core nutrient. If everything is ok, add in 1 or 2 suppliments, if everything is still ok, add in more of your preferred nutrients. For me that is how I solved my problems with deficiencies and ph issues. I use Big Bud, Overdrive, B-52, Voodoo juice, calmag for grow and sensizyme, all AN and since doing what I do not have stopped getting problems.

The other thing I would add is I also grow severl strains at the same time, 5 flowering just now. I am working towards one strain I like that produces the meds I need for my little co op so it has to be this way. What I would say is that planning out in detail your nutrient program in the way you have is great, but you have to be flexible. If your plants start yellowing during the first week of flower, they need more nitrogen. Does your plan allow for this?

For this reason, I would recommend having a core "framework" of what you would "like" to use but always have the flexibility of being able to change things if your plants tell you they need something different.

Green mojo my friend and I hope it all works out for you. W
 

Hick

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I am finding that the last 2 weeks of flowering always bring reduced vigor of growth, and the formation of a lot of bracts (small waterleaf) all over the vast majority of buds.
from "MJ Botany".... chapter 4
The biosynthesis of cannabinoids and terpenes parallels the developmental stages of the calyx and associated resin-producing glandular trichomes. Also, the average developmental stage of the accumulated individual calyxes determines the maturational state of the entire floral cluster. Thus, determination of maturational stage and timing of the harvest is based on the average calyx and resin condition, along with general trends in morphology and development of the plant as a whole.

The basic morphological characteristics of floral maturation are measured by calyx-to-leaf ratio and internode length within floral clusters. Calyx-to-leaf ratios are highest during the peak floral stage. Later stages are usually characterized by decreased calyx growth and increased leaf growth. Internode length is usually very short between pairs of calyxes in tight dense clusters. At the end of the maturation cycle, if there is still growth, the internode length may increase in response to increased humidity and lowered light conditions. This is most often a sign that the floral clusters are past their reproductive peak; if so, they are preparing for rejuvenation and the possibility of re-growth the following season.

"Late Floral stage"..
..............The weight yield of floral clusters is usually highest at this point, but strains may begin to grow an excess of leaves in late-stage clusters to catch additional energy from the rapidly diminishing autumn sun. Total resin accumulation is highest at this stage, but the period of maximum resin production has passed.

Senescence or Rejuvenation Stage....
............Calyx production follows two basic patterns. In one, the percentage of calyxes climbs gradually and levels out during the peak floral stage. It begins to decline in the late floral stage, and leaf production increases as calyx production ceases. Other strains continue to produce calyxes at the expense of leaves, and the calyx percentage increases steadily throughout maturation. In both cases, there is some tendency for calyx percentage to level out during the peak floral stage irrespective of whether leaf growth accelerates or calyx growth continues at a later stage.

Factors Influencing THC Production
THC production requires the proper quantity and quality of light. It seems that none of the biosynthetic processes operate efficiently when low light conditions prevent proper photosynthesis. Research has shown (Valle et al. 1978) that twice as much THC is produced under a 12-hour photoperiod than under a 10-hour photoperiod.
Soooooo,... I am not well versed in hydro', but I am certainly an advocate of "KISS", and the beliefs that you certainly 'can' have and use too many unnecessary additives. But according to Clarke, you may be promoting the "bract" growth with some of your methods,(cutting the light hours),as well as it possibly being a natural process for maturation for your strain..:confused2:..
 

raoulduke2.0

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wow. I think ol' Hick might've hit it on the head. I hadn't considered the light cycle and humidity as causes of the extra leaf growth.

And woody, I will look into starting this next flowering cycle with the ppm lower. I dunno how perfect the ph perfect nutes actually are, but the 3 part line is supposed to be just as stable, and it seems to behave the same as GH does, so I kind of think it's just marketing. Leaving it to sit between additives is a sharp idea too. I'm going to do some experiments with smaller quantities of water and see how they buffer the pH over time.
 

Wetdog

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raoulduke2.0 said:
The only parts of my nute program that would "simplify" things to remove would be my flowering ammendments. Fulvic acid is not something that complicates a hute program, nor is Humics, nor a low content of Cal-mag, nor beneficial bacteria. The cal-mag just gets the water up to 75 ppm or so, which is that cal-mag content of most water used in hydroponics.

This does actually come out to be about half of what AN asks for most of the grow, btw.

And the 8 week schedule is just a starting point. I don't harvest until trichomes are 50% cloudy.
Well, I do an amended mix, mostly organic, but a couple of things jump out.

For late in flower, I would forgo the humic/fulvic and the micro. In the 'organics' anyway, a little of the HA and FA goes a long way and I seldom apply (soil drench), more than every 2 weeks or so. I do/did the micro (EJ MicroBlast), and the silica supplement (ProTekt).

Just a thought.

Wet
 

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