What am i doing wrong (im at my wits end)

[pontiff]

Hi there,
Im at my wits end... I have tried to grow hydro for 12 months on and off now and i always seem to roughly get the same result (i.e: nothing) no matter what I change and im running out of ideas....

So far I have tried

• different clones
• Tank water, Mains Water and Dam water
• Different ballasts and globes (both HPS600w)
• Different watering systems: Recirculation, runoff and by hand at the moment
• Different heights of hte light
• Different reflector
• full strengh Nutrients, 1/2 strength, and not at all.

Basically what happens is they dont grow all that much and start to die off at the edges. I know that at the moment they are hungry but i was trying to not feed them to start with to see if that was what was hurting them.

A friend of mine uses the same lights and same medium and grows really well, but here I cant seem to do it. I thought that it might be the quality of the power running in, so I have the lights running off a UPS, but that has not helped.


I have attached photos of my clone box so you can see that the clones were / are nice and healthy to start with, but get them into my tent and they fall over (so to speak).

They get 18 hours a day and the fan runs 24x7.


The first 2 pics are from my clone box.

Im at a complete loss to explain it, I have tried just about everything I can think of and I get the same result. Please someone help!!!!


1. How tall are your plants now?
About 20 centimetres or so?

2. How far from the lights are the tops of your plants? Is this a constant distance or have you changed it recently?
It does not seem to make a difference.. I've tried close and tried 30-40cms and the result seems the same.

3. How old are they?
Technically they are about 10-11 months old, but they have been in the tent for about 3 weeks.
4. What strain are they?
Umm not sure
5. Did you start them from seed or clone?
Cloned from some that i used for outdoor last season which went great guns and produced nicely.
6. What type of containers are you using and what size are they in gallons?
Ummmm im not sure but the pictures show them

WHAT TYPE OF GROW DO YOU HAVE?


7. Dirt?
In a soilless medium. Same that I used for outdoor which worked fine. coconut husk stuff I think it is
8. What mixture of dirt or type of dirt did you use?

9. Is it a type that has added nutrients like "Miracle Grow"?
Not that I am aware of. It has fertiliser in it, but its the slow release kind.
10. What mixture of perlite, vermiculite and other additives have you used if any?
Nothing as yet
11. Hydroponic?
Yes

WHAT TYPE OF HYDROPONIC SYSTEM DO YOU USE?


12. Ebb and Flow

13. NFT

14. Bubbler/Deep Water
At the moment its just me hand watering it to try and 'tick off' any of the factors that could be causing it

WHAT TYPE OF MEDIA DO YOU USE?


15. Gravel

16. Hydroton

17. Rockwool slab
Ummmmmm

WHAT TYPE OF LIGHTS DO YOU USE?


18. Fluorescent

19. Halide

20. HPS
YES.. HPS
21. Wattage?
600
22. Ballast, is it digital or analog?
Im not sure the difference but I would assume analog?
23. Is it remote or in your grow area?
Its outside the tent with a 2-3metre power lead
24. What nutrients are you feeding your plants?
At the moment... nothing... just water to try and ascertain the root of the problem

HYDROPONIC FERTS?


25. What brand? What mix? What strength?

26. How often, and when was the last time?
At this stage... nothing.

SOIL FERTS?


27. What brand? What strength? What mix?

28. How often, and when was the last time?


ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS OF THE GROW AREA


29. Do you use ventilation for your indoor grow?
Yes.. I have an exhaust fan that sucks out the old air
30. If so, what do you use?

31. Do you use a fan?
Tried a fan yes, no difference.
32. What type of fan and where is it pointed? What speed?
Just the standard pedastal fan that you would buy from the local hardware store. Tried facing it in all different directions.
33. Temperature of the grow area?
20's I would think. much the same as the clone box which clones great.
34. Humidity of the grow area?
Not sure, I can find out if need be?
35. Is CO2 being introduced? What method?
No
36. Do you use Odor Control, (carbon, ionizer, ozone gen)?
No... not needed where it is.
37. Do you use LST? HST?
No

 

[pontiff]

... and here is the problem plant pics

 

[pontiff]

Sorry for the yellow pics, but its because the light is on. If you think that it would help I can take hte plant out of the tent and into the daylight and take them again?

 

[Hick]

pontiff.. you say a "tent"?
...I 'believe' that there is a problem with one specific 'brand' of tent. Something was toxic to plants. theres a thread here.. 'somewhere'..

 

[Hick]

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25462&highlight=toxic+tent

After several months of extensive testing, false positives and much interaction with the public regarding this matter, we have found an EPA approved compound that isn't stable in our plastic and that causes extreme stress to certain sensitive plants. In the future, this compound will be removed during manufacture.
http://www.reefermanseeds.com/forums...ead.php?t=9785

 

[Growdude]

You dont mention your PH do you know the PH?

The fist pic looks like nute burn,the leaf tip is brown, also the leaf edges have brown spots along the edge. could be from the pre nuted soiless mix.

Pic 2 looks like heat stress, the leaf edges are curling up along the edge of the leaf.
You say the temps are "20's I would think" Check the temps at the top of the canopy.

You say you have had the bulb close and at 30 and 40 cm
30-40 is pretty close if you dont have the proper exhaust.

 

[andy52]

i agree with hick.if this has been going on for a yr.,i would toss the tent.probably the kind with the pvc issues.killing your plants.check it out.homebox is the good tent.

 

[pontiff]

i agree with hick.if this has been going on for a yr.,i would toss the tent.probably the kind with the pvc issues.killing your plants.check it out.homebox is the good tent.

Thanks for the tips, I will get a temp gauge and such today and measure

I forgot to say, also of I take the plant out and just let it grow outside it does great, they take off, same pot, same food etc, just in the tent they flounder,

Outdoor I use same pre-nuted mix without issue, could the mix be ok outdoor and overloaded for hydro?

Thanks for tent reference, I hope u can get them in oz

 

[pontiff]

tent is just some Chinese manufactured crap, was about usd150 or so

 

[andy52]

theres your problem.the tent is most likely emitting something that is screwing your crop.jmo

 

[BuddyLuv]

Yeah I say pitch the tent (no pun intended lol).

 

[HMAN]

Just an untrained observation........ you're running an HPS on an 18/6 cycle? I would think if your trying to veg, you might try a M/H? or even floros? Isn't an HPS used primarily for flowering? And if so, wouldn't you want to be on a 12/12 cycle..........??

 

[New_2_Chronic]

HMAN,

you can use a HPS full cycle veg and flower... I do....Check my sig journal. MH is better for VEG because of the blue spectrum that promotes bushy plants with little stretch. HPS to some induces stretching in VEG but my plants havent stretched to much at all///

 

[HMAN]

I stand corrected.

 

[pontiff]

theres your problem.the tent is most likely emitting something that is screwing your crop.jmo

Thanks for the tip. Im trying to get a mate over to try and errect something with his proper plastic that he builds rooms with and see if that helps. I'll look around for another tent as well. Not quite sure where to find one as the local hydro shops dont really deal with/in them

 

[pontiff]

Here are some pictures of the offending plant in the day light.

There is a place in Sydney that sells the proper homeboxes it would seem

www . hydromasta dot com dot au /view_product.php?p=10251&id=11

they look like the right thing?

Until I get the tent situation sorted out I am going to leave it outside. Its about 3 weeks too early here for an outdoor grow, but it will suffice for a few days until I get my tent / replacement sorted.

 

[POTUS]

Hello Pontiff,

Sorry I missed your thread until now. I can tell you exactly what the problems are with your setup but first I need to know a couple more things so that I can give you a complete resolution to your problems.

1. Please describe your ebb and flow system to me. What have you filled the grow chambers with? I notice that you didn't answer that in a previous post. Is it rocks, hydroton, rockwool, or what?

2. When using the ebb and flow system, how often did you run the pump to flood the system?

3. While the pump was on, how long did you leave it on before the pump shut off and the system drained?

4. What brand of nutrients are you using at half strength? I need to look at the spec sheet on their web page. If you have the web address, it would help.

5. Have you ever checked the pH of your water? Is your water chlorinated?

The first thing you absolutely need to do is raise the height of your lights to about 60, yes I said 60 cm. 40 cm is WAY too close and closer than that is just killing them faster. I have no doubt that *someone* will tell you that they use theirs at 40 cm or closer and do fine, but if you do as I say, your plants will start growing fine again. I have hundreds of successful grows to back up what I'm telling you.

When the plants are too close to the lights, several factors come into play. First, the transpiration rate is thrown into it's highest gear. That transpiration rate has to be balanced with additional nutrients of a ratio that the plant needs at that rate of growth and a very close watering frequency to both hydrate the plant and roots as well as keeping the root zone at acceptable levels of temperature.

As close as you had those lights, Infrared light also comes into the equation. IR kills plants. It's that simple. When your 600 watt bulbs are 40 cm or even closer to the plants, the level of IR causes stress to the leaves. That stress affects how the plant takes up nutrients and water.

In my ebb and flow systems, I use a one hour on, two hours off, 24/7 for my pumps. It works great. As long as your reservoir water is between 70 to no more than 80F, (21-26C), and the temp at the canopy is between 75 and 85, your lights are at 60 cm and you have a fan oscillating over your plants strong enough to move them SLIGHTLY, you should notice an improvement to your plants within a week to 10 days. As they heal and start growing normally, they'll grow faster and faster.

I don't care how you cool your grow room or lights, closer than 60 cm with a 600 watt HPS is too close. IR and direct heat are frying your ladies.

Let me know the answers to the other questions and I'll get you on track with a proper grow. I would suggest that you use your current nutes at 1/8th of the suggested container plant strength of the manufacturer. That will be safe until we can figure out your entire system.

Stoney.

 

[pontiff]

Hello Pontiff,

Sorry I missed your thread until now. I can tell you exactly what the problems are with your setup but first I need to know a couple more things so that I can give you a complete resolution to your problems.

1. Please describe your ebb and flow system to me. What have you filled the grow chambers with? I notice that you didn't answer that in a previous post. Is it rocks, hydroton, rockwool, or what?

2. When using the ebb and flow system, how often did you run the pump to flood the system?

3. While the pump was on, how long did you leave it on before the pump shut off and the system drained?

4. What brand of nutrients are you using at half strength? I need to look at the spec sheet on their web page. If you have the web address, it would help.

5. Have you ever checked the pH of your water? Is your water chlorinated?

The first thing you absolutely need to do is raise the height of your lights to about 60, yes I said 60 cm. 40 cm is WAY too close and closer than that is just killing them faster. I have no doubt that *someone* will tell you that they use theirs at 40 cm or closer and do fine, but if you do as I say, your plants will start growing fine again. I have hundreds of successful grows to back up what I'm telling you.

When the plants are too close to the lights, several factors come into play. First, the transpiration rate is thrown into it's highest gear. That transpiration rate has to be balanced with additional nutrients of a ratio that the plant needs at that rate of growth and a very close watering frequency to both hydrate the plant and roots as well as keeping the root zone at acceptable levels of temperature.

As close as you had those lights, Infrared light also comes into the equation. IR kills plants. It's that simple. When your 600 watt bulbs are 40 cm or even closer to the plants, the level of IR causes stress to the leaves. That stress affects how the plant takes up nutrients and water.

In my ebb and flow systems, I use a one hour on, two hours off, 24/7 for my pumps. It works great. As long as your reservoir water is between 70 to no more than 80F, (21-26C), and the temp at the canopy is between 75 and 85, your lights are at 60 cm and you have a fan oscillating over your plants strong enough to move them SLIGHTLY, you should notice an improvement to your plants within a week to 10 days. As they heal and start growing normally, they'll grow faster and faster.

I don't care how you cool your grow room or lights, closer than 60 cm with a 600 watt HPS is too close. IR and direct heat are frying your ladies.

Let me know the answers to the other questions and I'll get you on track with a proper grow. I would suggest that you use your current nutes at 1/8th of the suggested container plant strength of the manufacturer. That will be safe until we can figure out your entire system.

Stoney.

Stoney,

Right.. New pics... I have raised the light (I need to create a light 'stand' because the ceiling of the house is ...well... designed by a blind man, cant stand much weight at all.

From the tip of the plant to that metal reflector thing is 60cms exactly. I run a 18x6 rotation (they were cloned using the same time cycle)

I have an occilating fan in there now running 24x7 on low as well as my standard small exhaust fan. Its been suggested running another exhaust fan to remove any harmful vapors etc that are perhaps building up?

The medium is attached also.. its a canna type product, coarse coconut husk. Incidentally... I have tried the canna brand medium also with the same effect. This is the same medium I use for outdoor. I had some pics somewhere of the results with it... but they've gone walkabout. suffice to say, in an outdoor system, watering for 2 mins, 3 times a day, it was magnificent.

Potus.. (love the name btw... being an Aussie its not my place, but I have huge respect for the 'office' not necessarily the person who resides in it) I am interested in your thoughts on the grow tent issues raised above. Am I shooting myself in the foot to start with due to the 'suspect' nature of the grow tents manufacture? Would I be better off getting a 1.2x1.2x2 (metres) growtent from homebox (found 1 place in Oz that has them) and starting again? The tent does smell of 'plastic' and ive had it for about 12 months now. *cue gags about 'of course it smells like plastic... it is plastic'*

As for the nutes. I have not started feeding them yet due to the fact that I wanted to try and rule out as many things as I could before I started feeding them again. If the leaved did not brown off and they continued to be healthy I would have started feeding them, but since they are floundering again, I thought it best to work that out first? When feeding the grow rate did not change nor did the effects on the leaves. When I start feeding I will post a pic of the bottle, but its a 2 part solution.

At the moment I am hand watering it once a day to keep track of its progress. The other watering systems I have tried is a recirc running 15 mins every hour 18 hours a day, 15 mins every 3 hours 24 hours a day, and variations on that.
Any direction you would be able to provide would be greatly appreciated. I hope that I have provided you with enough information

 

[Growdude]

Maybe its just the picture but it sure looks like you moved the light alot more than 20 -30 cm.

Still have not mentioned PH do you check that?

 

[pontiff]

Maybe its just the picture but it sure looks like you moved the light alot more than 20 -30 cm.

Still have not mentioned PH do you check that?

Probably just the pic I think, cause its definatly at 60 exactly now

I used to check the pH but I'm so disenchanted and I never checked it with outdoor , once I get this problem sorted and do recirc, I will certainly check it

Tap water which i use here is not bad