bud from seed?

[85cannabliss]

with height restrictions could i just veg for a week (tops), and then flipp to 12/12? that way i get a plant that hasnt been topped or trained. and thats what i want.

oppinions would be appreciated, this is a TO DO OR NOT TO DO question, and give me your reasons for your answer.

thanks 85C

 

[I'ma Joker Midnight Toker]

with height restrictions could i just veg for a week (tops), and then flipp to 12/12? that way i get a plant that hasnt been topped or trained. and thats what i want.

oppinions would be appreciated, this is a TO DO OR NOT TO DO question, and give me your reasons for your answer.

thanks 85C

Yes, absolutely, I'd let it get a few inches tall...you can make it go to flower at any stage though I think by letting it grow a few sets of leaves you at least let it establish itself a bit.

 

[POTUS]

MJ takes about 6 weeks to become sexually mature enough to flower.

You can start 12/12 as soon as you like, but it isn't' going to flower until it's sexually mature.

If you want to really conserve space, then you can grow some Low Ryders. They stay as short as any type of MJ there is. You won't have to deprive your plant of vegetative light to maintain a short stature.

 

[mal_crane]

MJ takes about 6 weeks to become sexually mature enough to flower.

You can start 12/12 as soon as you like, but it isn't' going to flower until it's sexually mature.

If you want to really conserve space, then you can grow some Low Ryders. They stay as short as any type of MJ there is. You won't have to deprive your plant of vegetative light to maintain a short stature.

Can't say I agree with you there buddy. I've grown quite a hefty number of plants from seed using 12/12. Using just 12/12 I can usually begin seeing sex around week 2-3.

 

[POTUS]

Can't say I agree with you there buddy. I've grown quite a hefty number of plants from seed using 12/12. Using just 12/12 I can usually begin seeing sex around week 2-3.

Then your results differ from the thousands of tests that have been done by botanists and growers throughout the world.

The average is 6 to 8 weeks.

If you have a strain that shows sexual maturity in 2 to 3 weeks, you need to contact a breeder and and get that strain into the market.

I'm not trying to be a smart-butt, but so many serious botanists and growers have had the 6 to 8 week timing that it's an accepted statistic. There are strains that mature earlier, but not many. I've never heard of ANY strain that shows sexual maturity in 2 weeks. Not even 3. I have had strains that matured sexually in as little as mid-4 week, but it wasn't repeatable.

Anyone can research this information. It's available all over the web. It's not my statistic, but I can also vouch for it as what I've seen after literally thousands of crops of my own.

What strains are you getting a 2 to 3 week sexual maturity from?

On the next crop you do this with, I'd love to see day by day photos posted here that show nice clear close-ups of the nodes of your plants.

When week 2 or 3 arrives, I'd also like to see the photos of the same plants showing sex with nice clear photos.

If you're correct in saying that you get these results on a repeatable basis, you can easily become a multi-millionaire with your method. It defies what is happening with everyone else's studies and grows. Contact a major breeder in Holland and tell him what you have. He'll pay you top dollars to come there and prove it to him. The sales deal you could develop would make you a very rich man.

Good luck man. I hope to know you *then*. I could use the bucks.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, it's 6 weeks from the germination of the seed. Is that what you're saying? That you start the clock the very day your seed shows it's first tap root?

 

[Dubbaman]

Hey 85, you can do the 12/12 from the start if you'd like and it will grow just as it should. As has been said here it will still be about 6 weeks till you see signs of sex, but then your end result will be what your looking for, small single cola most likely thick potent ones too.

 

[85cannabliss]

Just to make sure we're on the same page, it's 6 weeks from the germination of the seed. Is that what you're saying? That you start the clock the very day your seed shows it's first tap root?

from the day they all have true leaves, then ill make the switch, so id say about 1 week veg.

thanks dubbaman, just the answer i was looking for bro.

 

[POTUS]

from the day they all have true leaves, then ill make the switch, so id say about 1 week veg.

How long did it take for your plants to reach that "first true leaves" stage from the first sign of a tap root from the seed?

 

[That crazy vancouver guy]

well... I just flipped my girls from 18/6 to 12/12 (over a week), starting at the 5.5 week cuz I could see they were hitting sexual maturity. 6 weeks... just as POTUS was saying.... :holysheep:

 

[mal_crane]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough Potus. I did not say my plants could reach full sexual maturity in 2-3 weeks. To clear things up, I said that starting a seed using 12/12 lighting I can begin to see female preflowers and even pistils by the end of the third week. Males seem to take until the fourth week to show any sign of sex under these conditions. As soon as I come back from florida, I will start a journal for you as I see you're one of those see-to-believe types, no offense meant (actually a very good quality).

 

[mal_crane]

well... I just flipped my girls from 18/6 to 12/12 (over a week), starting at the 5.5 week cuz I could see they were hitting sexual maturity. 6 weeks... just as POTUS was saying.... :holysheep:

Not to butt in or be rude, but I was discussing the length of time directly from 12/12 not 18/6 and switching over to 12/12.

 

[godtea]

I have a seed packet from greenhouse WW and it states you can switch to 12 12 after 2 weeks .
I would think you'd end up with munchkins if you did this
A healthy plan has a weel established root system
veg for more time and jus select a apical from a side branch .
You'll have a short plant like you're looking for ,with kahones
Much better outcome

 

[POTUS]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough Potus. I did not say my plants could reach full sexual maturity in 2-3 weeks. To clear things up, I said that starting a seed using 12/12 lighting I can begin to see female preflowers and even pistils by the end of the third week. Males seem to take until the fourth week to show any sign of sex under these conditions. As soon as I come back from florida, I will start a journal for you as I see you're one of those see-to-believe types, no offense meant (actually a very good quality).

I think it's the terminology we're disagreeing on.

A marijuana plant is considered to be at sexual maturity at the very first sign of sexual traits on the plant. The timing of this is considered by breeders as the time it takes from the very first sign of a tap root when germinating the seed until it shows either the beginning of confirmed male flowers or the beginning of confirmed female flowers. The male characteristics are generally the formation of the male calyx at a node and the female with the formation of the female flower stalk/bulb. Either can be seen clearly with a magnifying glass.

This is the timing I refer to when I say 6 to 8 weeks. The evidence of this has been seen so many times that it's really not debatable.

I think you and I are actually saying the same thing, it's just a matter of when the clock starts and stops.

A day by day photo Journal would help everyone see the steps involved with both germinating and recognizing the two variances in gender.

 

[POTUS]

I have a seed packet from greenhouse WW and it states you can switch to 12 12 after 2 weeks .

They are perfectly correct in saying this. It doesn't mean, however, that female flowers will be seen at that time. You can turn on the lights to 12/12 a week before you buy the seeds, but it still isn't any sign of sexual maturity.

The sexual maturity of marijuana has been determined by botanists for many, many decades to be between 6 to 8 weeks from germination.

Saying differently will not change the fact that this is a known quantity in the botany of the Marijuana plant. Hundreds of studies have proven this. These studies were performed in a lab setting at major research centers and Universities.

I really don't mean to piss anyone off, but we're arguing something that is as well known as chicken eggs coming from chickens.

Peace everyone!

 

[mal_crane]

I think we're coming to a little better understanding than we started at. I personally don't consider a plant to begin it's life until it's little head begins to poke up out of the soil, whether I pre-germ or not, but I understand what you're saying better as I've seen some seeds take over a week to come out of the soil, even after pre-germing them. With 12/12 from the time I see my sprout, add 3 weeks and I can guarantee you that I will see at least preflowers. Man, I truly wish I had already went to daytona and come back already just so I can get growing again.

 

[POTUS]

Marijuana Botany
An Advanced Study: The Propagation and Breeding of Distinctive Cannabis
by Robert Connell Clarke

"The maturation of Cannabis is normally annual and
its timing is influenced by the age of the plant, changes in
photoperiod, and other environmental conditions. When a
plant reaches an adequate age for flowering (about two
months)..."

***********

I've clipped a few informitive articles about the genetics, breeding and sexual determination of marijuana for those of you that have the time and inclination to do the reading:

If you research just the names involved with these publications and attach "marijuana" or "hemp" to the name, you should find quite a few of them.

References:
************
Erowid. 2006. Cannabis Basics.

Lebel-Hardenack, S. and S. R. Grant. 1997. Genetics of sex determination in flowering plants. Trends in Plant Science 2(4): 130–136.

Cristiana Moliterni, V. M., L. Cattivelli, P. Ranalli. and G. Mandolino. 2005. The sexual differentiation of Cannabis sativa L.: A morphological and molecular study. Euphytica 140(1-2): 95-106.

Mahlberg, Paul G. and Eun Soo Kim. 2001. THC (tetrahyrdocannabinol) accumulation in glands of Cannabis (Cannabaceae). The Hemp Report 3(17).

Etienne P. M. de Meijer, M. Bagatta, A. Carboni, P. Crucitti, V. M. Cristiana Moliterni, P. Ranalli, and G. Mandolino. 2003. The Inheritance of Chemical Phenotype in Cannabis sativa L. Genetics 163(1): 335-346.

Hillig, Karl W. and Paul G. Mahlberg. 2004. A chemotaxonomic analysis of cannabinoid variation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae). American Journal of Botany 91(6): 966-975.

Small, E. 1972. Interfertility and chromosomal uniformity in Cannabis. Canadian Journal of Botany 50(9): 1947-1949.

Hillig, Karl W. 2005. Genetic evidence for speciation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae). Genetic Resources and Crop Evolution 52(2): 161-180.

Watts, G. 2006. Cannabis confusions. BMJ 332: 175-176.

Schultes, R. E. 1970. Random thoughts and queries on the botany of Cannabis. In: Joyce, C. R. B. and Curry, S. H. (eds), The Botany and Chemistry of Cannabis. J. & A. Churchill, London, pp. 11-38.

Faeti, V., G. Mandolino, and P. Ranalli. 1996. Genetic diversity of Cannabis sativa germplasm based on RAPD markers. Plant Breeding 115: 367–370.

Mandolino, G. and Ranalli, P. 2002. The applications of molecular markers in genetics and breeding of hemp. Journal of Industrial Hemp 7(1): 7-23.

Dr. Paul G. Mahlberg's Cannabis Research. North American Industrial Hemp Council.

Hillig, Karl W. 2005. Genetic evidence for speciation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae). Genetic Resources and Crop Evolution 52(2): 161-180.

Hillig, Karl William. 2005. A systematic investigation of Cannabis. Doctoral Dissertation. Department of Biology, Indiana University. Bloomington, Indiana. Published by UMI.

Ranalli, P. 2004. Current status and future scenarios of hemp breeding. Euphytica 140(1): 121-131.

Hirata, K. 1924. Sex reversal in hemp. Journal of the Society of Agriculture and Forestry 16: 145-168.

Schaffner, J. H. 1931. The fluctuation curve of sex reversal in staminate hemp plants induced by photoperiodicity. American Journal of Botany 18(6): 424-430.

Truta, E., E. Gille, E. Toth, and M. Maniu. 2002. Biochemical differences in Cannabis sativa L. depending on sexual phenotype. Journal of Applied Genetics 43(4): 451-462.

Negrutiu, I., B. Vyskot, N. Barbacar, S. Georgiev, and F. Moneger. 2001. Dioecious plants; a key to the early events of sex chromosome evolution. Plant Physiology 127(4): 418-424.

Shao Hong and Robert C. Clarke. 1996. Taxonomic studies of Cannabis in China. Journal of the International Hemp Association 3(2): 55-60.

Peil, A., H. Flachowsky, E. Schumann, and W. E. Weber. 2003. Sex-linked AFLP markers indicate a pseudoautosomal region in hemp (Cannabis sativa L.). Theoretical and Applied Genetics 107(1): 102-109.

Sakamoto, K., K. Shimomura, Y. Komeda, H. Kamada, and S. Satoh. 1995. A male-associated DNA sequence in a dioecious plant, Cannabis sativa L. Plant & Cell Physiology 36(8): 1549-1554.

Sakamoto, K., T. Abe, T. Matsuyama, S. Yoshida, N. Ohmido, K. Fukui, and S. Satoh. 2005. RAPD markers encoding retrotransposable elements are linked to the male sex in Cannabis sativa L. Genome 48(5): 931-936.

Törjék, O., N. Bucherna, E. Kiss, H. Homoki, Z. Finta-Korpelová, I. Bócsa, I. Nagy, and L. E. Heszky. 2002. Novel male specific molecular markers (MADC5, MADC6) for sex identification in hemp. Euphytica 127: 209-218.

Tanurdzic, M. and J. A. Banks. 2004. Sex-determining mechanisms in land plants. Plant Cell 16 (suppl.): S61-71.

Journal of Industrial Hemp 2003 Vol 8 issue 1 page 5-9, Female-Associated DNA Polymorphisms of Hemp (Cannabis sativa L.), Hong Shao, Shu-Juan Song, Robert C. Clarke

Doorenbos, Norman J., Patricia S. Fetterman, Maynard W. Quimby, and Carlton Turner. 1971. Cultivation, extraction, and analysis of Cannabis sativa L. Annals New York Academy of Sciences 191: 3-14.

 

[POTUS]

I think we're coming to a little better understanding than we started at. I personally don't consider a plant to begin it's life until it's little head begins to poke up out of the soil...

In all scientific studies, the parameters must be understood by all parties. This is the only way that any determination of facts can be arrived at in a manner that is consistent with all testing.

"Scientific Method" is the manner that is accepted within the recognized authorities involved in any subject of investigation within the Scientific community.

To arrive at true "Scientific Method", a means of identifying each point in time must be arrived at.

In regards to Marijuana Botany, that method, in relation to specifically identifying sexual characteristics of the plant, is the timing between first sign of germination to absolute visual identification of gender and is referred to as the time of sexual maturity of the plant.

This exact replication of method is needed to avoid miscommunication.

***
Thanks everyone, this was a fun discussion. I think we all learned that we must mean the same things for the same functions if we are all to understand each other.

POTUS

 

[mal_crane]

Oh don't worry you won't piss me off on this one. Apparently it's not as well known as chicken eggs coming from chickens. I'm being honest when I say I've been using this method for several years now when I don't have time for a full harvest, or if i'm low on space. Besides, that quote just helped my case unless I've read it wrong.

"The maturation of Cannabis is normally annual and
its timing is influenced by the age of the plant, changes in
photoperiod, and other environmental conditions. When a
plant reaches an adequate age for flowering (about two
months)..."

 

[gangalama]

Just a few references huh Potus?

 

[mal_crane]

Well if you're truly done with this conversation, so be it, I'm just trying to be helpful. I mean, unless I went blind in the past couple years then, what I've been seeing between weeks 2 and 4 of the plants life under 12/12 are preflowers and flowers. Sorry that our lines of communication are simply not coagulating today.