need some advice!!!

[massproducer]

A ph of 6.8 is almost neutral, but you should do what works for you. I do agree with 6.5, as I let my ph creep up to 6.3, but 6.8 seems rather high for plants grown hydroponically. but as I said whatever works for you.

When the pH is not at the proper level marijuana will lose it's ability to absorb some of the essential elements required for healthy growth. For all plants there is a particular pH level that will produce optimum results. Marijuana likes it's hydroponic solution to be 5.5 to 6.1 and soil to be 6.3 to 6.8. Although most plants can still survive in an environment with a pH of 5.0 to 7.5.
​

If the pH is too high, marijuana suffers from a lack of iron, zinc, manganese, copper and boron. If the pH is too low, it lacks phosphoric acid, calcium, and magnesium. At lower pH (more acidic) ranges, diseases can thrive. Normally, plants tend to take up more acidic elements, causing pH levels to increase or drift up the scale.
​

Now, from my understanding of this is, you should let your hydroponic solutions 'drift' up to 5.9 to 6.0 for hydroponic systems and for dirt grows let it drift up from 6.3 to 6.8 to allow the Magnesium to be available without the addition of Epsom salt (which results in EDTA lockouts because we are adding too much Magnesium.)
​

 

[massproducer]

"Using distilled water and adjusting the pH to 5.5 each day may maximise the overall plant growth, but stretching in vegetative growth will be likely and poorer flower count will also be a problem"

Stoney
Sorry I did not notice this first, but where did you get this info from. I have also never ever heard this before.

excess Heat and being root bound causes stretching in veg, as does insufficent light. I have never had any problems with this before, I actually have some of the tightest nodes I have seen.

Also a poorer flowering count is not caused by a ph in the range that I use. A poor flower plant comes from an unhealthy plant in a hot grow room, or from your plant being root bound.

I have never experienced any of these things growing in the range of 5.5-6.1

I do agree that it is not advisable to adjust your ph to 5.5 everyday, you have to let it drift up, I just do not let it drift that high, not for hydro anyways. Now soil is a different story. I grow in soil from 6-6.7

 

[Stoney Bud]

Marijuana likes it's hydroponic solution to be 5.5 to 6.1 and soil to be 6.3 to 6.8.

It makes no difference what the media is when describing what the MJ plant can use as a "perfect" pH. None what so ever. If the pH of your soil is 6.5 and the pH of your hydro solution is 6.5, the world is exactly the same to the roots of the plant in regards to nutrient uptake.

The reason for this is that the plant is looking at a microscopic view of the world it's in. Molecular pH stability is what it strives for in any particular area of the root system. The other molecules in it's environment don't mean a thing to the root if the immediate pH is what it needs to absorb the available nutrients.

To think that a difference exists is similar to thinking that you will get wet differently if you are in a forest or a parking lot. The "where" of it is irrelevant. You're wet.

It's the same with pH. If the pH is stabilized as much as possible in any media, and the nutrients are available to the plant, the uptake criteria is exactly the same regardless of media.

This is the side of the argument that the other half of the botanical world believes as strongly as does the side that believes what you've said is true.

I see no advantage to debating on something the scientists don't agree on either. I'll wait to see who turns out correct between them.

The wise person will do as I say, and try several methods until they find the one that works best for them.

I heard someone in here one time discuss writing thank you notes to their plant. They obviously believed it might actually do something.

Hell, maybe that persons plants DID grow better after reading the notes !!

Hey MassProducer, peace be with you man. I enjoy discussing things with you. You sound like you've done your homework, but I could suggest reading all of the information available. You'll run into countless "opposites" in "absolutes" that are described in quite a few articles and pubs.

What I like to do is go to the library and pick a subject like "pH Studies" that would be in the "Subject" side of the "Books in print" collection every good library has. You may want to check "Plant" "Botany" and the like also for books that contain "pH" in the title. You'll be surprised at how many you'll find for almost any subject. Then, I like to put a request in at the desk for the "Intra-Library" loan of several of the books at a time. I make a photo copy of the pages so I can scratch out the ones I've read. Then I start reading them. I've found that if I get 10 books on a specific subject, by the time I've read three of them, I start running into familiar information. By the fourth, I start seeing contradictions. Then, the rest of them confirm the "sides" of thought in that subject that exist. It's up to you then as to which "side" you choose to think is correct.

Try it the next time you're at the library. Pick a specific subject and look for "Books in Print". The Librarian will help you look and get you familiar with the method.

Have fun man.

Now I'm taking several tokes and think how funny it will be to me if the side I'm backing turns out to be full of shit next year.

Hhaahahahahahahaa

 

[massproducer]

Hey stoney

I too love to share knowledge and info with you, as you are a very knowledgeble grower and person in general.

As too the issue of soil and hydro, the different ph requirements are because in soil nutrients are not readily availible for aborbsotion. You actually feed the soil which in turn feeds your plants roots. The soil can only take certain nutes at certain PH's. That is why in soil flushing becomes such an issue because the nutes can precipatate out of the soil very easy.
There are also micro organisms that live in soil that do not in hydroponic mediums. These micro organisms break down the nutes and make then availible for the plants roots.

In hydro, none of this happens. In hydro the plants roots are able to eat the actual nutes, they do not need to be broken down.


I found this explaination, it is from SUNY college of Enviromental Science and Forestry

pH Affects Nutrients, Minerals and Growth

The effect of soil pH is great on the solubility of minerals or nutrients. Fourteen of the seventeen essential plant nutrients are obtained from the soil. Before a nutrient can be used by plants it must be dissolved in the soil solution. Most minerals and nutrients are more soluble or available in acid soils than in neutral or slightly alkaline soils.

Phosphorus is never readily soluble in the soil but is most available in soil with a pH range centered around 6.5. Extremely and strongly acid soils (pH 4.0-5.0) can have high concentrations of soluble aluminum, iron and manganese which may be toxic to the growth of some plants. A pH range of approximately 6 to 7 promotes the most ready availability of plant nutrients.

But some plants, such as azaleas, rhododendrons, blueberries, white potatoes and conifer trees, tolerate strong acid soils and grow well. Also, some plants do well only in slightly acid to moderately alkaline soils. However, a slightly alkaline (pH 7.4-7.8) or higher pH soil can cause a problem with the availability of iron to pin oak and a few other trees in Central New York causing chlorosis of the leaves which will put the tree under stress leading to tree decline and eventual mortality.

The soil pH can also influence plant growth by its effect on activity of beneficial microorganisms Bacteria that decompose soil organic matter are hindered in strong acid soils. This prevents organic matter from breaking down, resulting in an accumulation of organic matter and the tie up of nutrients, particularly nitrogen, that are held in the organic matter.

Credits:
Text prepared by Donald Bickelhaupt, Instructional Support Specialist, Faculty of Forest and Natural Resources Management. Illustration by Robert Schmedicke.

Submission Guidelines (ESF faculty and staff only)



This is turning into a very educational experience

 

[fumanchu]

by the way guys this is a great ******* topic... am loving it right now!!! anyway.. am gonna be doing the same as both of you guys do... just to see if is any difference on how the plants uptake those nutes and how the plants overall look like, and i definetely will let you know guys how they look..now since i was aiming a lil low and i could never keep it at the range of 5.5 to like 6.0..every time i lower it, by the next day it was already at 6.0 or 6.5... but it stays there for like a couple of days.. am definetely painting that reservoir cuze it looks like thas the whole issue with the ph been unstable... (thanks stoney)..but the point that stoney brought is very true about different opinions is respect to the ph.. i literally spend a good 2 months reading on how to grow this awesome plant and every time and turn from one book to another the ph topic was always different from book to book...but it seems that both ways works well based on you guys experienced and prove of see in it your plants..MAN AM DEALING HERE WITH SOME GREAT BOTANIST!!!!....i wonder what my plants would look like without you guys!!!like shit problably....haha...stoney and massproducer, its my pleasure to meetcha!!! and to all those that have reply one way or another to the thread, thanks...am gonna be switching cycles next week so that i can start sexing my babies....and before i forget, i found my first female of this crop like 2 days ago..haha...only 2 females and i feel i got a ***** house!!!! lol...thank u again!!!

 

[Stoney Bud]

only 2 females and i feel i got a ***** house!!!!

We've created a monster!!!

Hahahahaha

Hey good luck on your grow man. I'm looking forward to those pics.

 

[Book]

Not trying to hijack this thread or anything, but it seems this is where all the great Sages are discussing. My plants are about four inches high with small leaves on the top. This morning, one looked like it was "bent" in half. Like it was taking a bow and just snapped!
Now, I have been checking my PH and keeping it a about 6.5, following Massproducer's advice with a two week water change. Not sure what caused this to happen. Any thoughts?

 

[Zarnon]

Hey dude, what's up?

Ditto on checking the water temp. Those aq. heaters can run too high.

Ph... man... after all this time I am still never completely sure. So many opinions, and it seems we base them on other plant profiles. Who has really done dope? I use buffered nutes from Holland which keep it low 6's, but really haven't seen a problem. I have read everything from 5.5 to 6.5.

In some respects the plants also remind me of oxy starve... are you sure those roots do not sit in unaerated water?

 

[Stoney Bud]

My plants are about four inches high with small leaves on the top. This morning, one looked like it was "bent" in half. Like it was taking a bow and just snapped!
Now, I have been checking my PH and keeping it a about 6.5, following Massproducer's advice with a two week water change. Not sure what caused this to happen. Any thoughts?

Tell all of us some more about your system. What type of hydro are you doing? At 4 inches tall, the plants are still babies. They don't need a nute additive yet. If you do decide to use one, use a one quarter strength mix at the most. At that age, a little nutes goes a long way.

Good luck man.

 

[fumanchu]

hey stoney..just wanna give you guys an update on how my babies are doing..i just changed the light bulb to high pressure sodium and i also changed the water and nutes...they a lil big now..i mean compare to what was left over after the aftermath with the ph, is a lot bigger..am sticking to what stoney told me on the ph...am gonna keep it a lil higher than what i used to...6.2 and 6.8...we'll see the results in a couple of weeks...let me know how they look..you see any differences from the old pics??? i also put 8 clones on this other microgarden system that i got.. everything so far is looking good..thanks guys...later fellas!!!!

 

[fumanchu]

forgot to put the microgarden pic...

 

[massproducer]

I am glad that you have found a regimine that works for you, not disrespect you, but you have not actually used my regimine , I will always use 5.5-6.2ish.

Good luck though bro.

 

[massproducer]

Did you also adjust your lights height? Changing your nutes and water was the best thing because I honestly do not think that PH was your problem now that I look at your original pics, It looks like they are light bleached and heat burned with some nute probs and overwatering probably because of the heat, I do not see any ph problem in those leaves.

That is my bad as I kind of got caught up in the debate over PH's.

The first signs of a ph problem is not lock out, it is curled and/or spotted leaves like this.

 

[massproducer]

I think your problems were more of these natures.

1. Heat stress

2. Overwatering or 02 starvation

3. Maybe some underfeeding, but this could be caused by over watering

I should have paid more attention to the actual problem, instead of debating. Sorry bro.

but as I said whatever works for you.

Good luck and happy growing

 

[massproducer]

The last thing is, are your nutes buffered? See I do not need to add any PH up or down to my system because my nutes are buffered to their optimal zone. So when I add nutes the ph of my water is usually around 5.6-5.7, as the plants eat the ph rises a bit because of them using nutes and because I top my rez off with straight tap water which mine has a ph of 7.

 

[fumanchu]

hey massproducer....the only reason i did what stoney told me is because when i started this crop i was actually keeping the ph at the same rate as you...and dont get me wrong, they grew very nice and green without any leaves burn or nothing like that.. i was actually a lil surprise cuze they grew very fast..some of them were like 12 to 14 inches in a matter of 4 weeks... but at the same time am new to all of this...so i rather listen to other expert like you and stoney rather than come up with my own decisions when it comes to this..today when i changed the water and nutes that i bought a lil while ago, as soon as i check the ph (before watering them) the ph was like below 5..so i added some ph up until it went up to 6.0..now, that day when i noticed that the plants were looking like shit, i did check the ph and it was way off...very lowwww...so that was the only thing i could think off that could cuze the plants to look like that..the ph...i adjusted the height on the lights a couple of days after but once i saw that they were getting better, i lower the lights back again...and i left them like that for quite a while and until this day the top leaves dont have any signs of light burn...underfeeding?? u could be right...c02?? i dont have a co2 system but i do have a window like 2 1/2 feet away from my grow room that i keep open sometimes so that the co2 refresh throughout the day....i have a clear reservoir and i think thats what cuze the ph to go crazy...believe me, its not that i dont wanna go the way u told me, its just that am experimenting to see which is the best way to go...i got much respect for you as well as for stoney... i will be going back to the ph that you have recommended...I CANT WAIT FOR HARVEST TIME!!! also, all that debating that you guys were doing, IT WAS ******* GREAT!!!..GOD knows how many people benefit from all this info and knowledge that you guys were sharing...thanks a million!! we be in touch...laterzz..also i got some pics from that time when the plants were starting and when they were dying so you can compare them....peace..

 

[fumanchu]

you can see in one of the pics that the leaves were curling up like you said...the midlle pic is the one am talking about...

 

[massproducer]

No don't change a thing if it is now working,
Stoney knows what he is talking about, I just wanted to recheck you pics in detail because I have never heard of anyone having problems like that from growing in this range, like I said that is how I grow. I honestly think that your nutes could also be creating the PH swings. If they are not buffered then they are going to be very hard to stabilize. Like what I use and what stoney uses are both buffered. I think he uses General Hydroponics- Flora series, good stuff, this is what I use to use, but now I have switched to advanced nutrients, these are actually formulated for Cannabis. I wanted to take a pic, but my camera just died.

I geuss curling is not the correct word I should use, the word is really twisted, yeah that is a better word to discribe it. Look at the edges of the leaves in this pic, see how they are twisted in this pic.

Also I actually ment O2 or oxygen starved, this can happen in high heat situations. I really still kind of think that heat was a problem, and either over or underwatering, some pics look like overwatering but some looked like underwatering. A ph problem will not do that to your plant, not that quick anyways. You will see spotted leaves, with maybe twisted NEW growth.

 

[massproducer]

The clear rez will also only cause ph swings if their is a lot of algae. The clearness speeds up the algae growth, and algae eats carbon dioxide, which actually makes the ph rise.

PH sure could have been a problem, but I am just not sure if that is what it actually was, because in that pic on the left the leaves look shirviled which usually happens because the leaves are transpiring more then they can eat.

 

[Useless]

I know I am new here to your forums, but let me interject if I may.

In my experience, Mass is entirely correct. Not saying Stoney is incorrect, but I have found that a Ph set to say 5.5 and allowed to drift upwards to about 6.2 produces the best results. In general.
It is also my experience to run a slightly lower Ph during veg than flower. During veg I run Ph of 5.5 to start and let it rise. After the 2nd week of flowering I set Ph to 5.8 and let it rise.
The medium does play a signifigant role in the uptake of nutrients as mentioned by Mass and detailed in the study he provided. (I have seen the same study results before).

Now as to the original problem - if you are using tap water, do you let sit for 12+ hours to evap the chlorine and ammonia? Doing this will help stabilize the solution and prevnet such drastic Ph fluctuations.
The best ? asked was is your nutrient formula Ph buffered? If not, it's best to find one that is buffered. I try not use acids to change the Ph. I use additives like Hygrozyme and/or Hydroplex (depending on growth stage) if the base nutrients will not pull the Ph in line.
Also, let your nutrient solution settle out before you adjust Ph. If you mix your ressy let the air stones churn the solution for about 4 hours before you adjust.
Last question - did you rinse the rocks? Although the rocks ( at least Hydroton brand) themselves are inert, the clay dust is acidic as it breaks down and will really screw up your Ph range.
Here's a shot of a garden ran with the Ph as I and Mass have described -

Well, thats my $0.02.
Stoney, damn good read too, don't take me as trying to discredit your more than credible statements. :thumbsup:
Cheers