Will this F&D S.O.G work?

fortphoenix

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hey guys i basically copied panhead and alpha phase on a flood and drain method… i have 2 questions but let me give you a background of what i plan on doing

single cola sog 8week flower
lucas formula
4’x8’ botanicare table
5” netpots
using root riot plugs and natural sponge cut into pieces for medium
2 weeks then flower
lucas formula
flood 15min every hour, 24/7

now whats different about this flood and drain is there will be no medium in the table, only in the netcups suspended by a tray cover which is why the flooding is so frequent but heres the questions….

1. I wanted to root/veg in an aerocloner 2 weeks total then transplant/flower. would it be okay to start a clone in the aerocloner in a riot rooter? (the way the roots stay close/around the plug seems ideal for transplanting in netcups/mediums) would this work? would the roots grow slower because the plug? howlong on average should i expect it to show roots? should i do a 1min on 5min off spray cycle or still keep the pump spraying 24/7?

2. Since the clones will only be 2 weeks old when they go into flower would it be ideal to add the net pot and sponge to the rapid rooter after 1 week in the cloner so the clones have 1 week to get used to being in the sponge before flower to eliminate shock? would adding the medium after 1 week in the aerocloner affect growth or shock it? what spray times would you recommend when the sponges are in?

Any advice is appreciated!!!!
 

Grower13

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I'm wondering if your plants might stay to wet with sponge in the 5 inch net pots..... seems most of the roots will be in the pots staying very wet with the sponge with only 2 weeks of veg.......... that is an easy fix with chipped coco or hydroton .......... I'm also worried about the weight of a 4 x 8 table full of water........ make sure you got the table on a heavy duty frame......... how big is your reservoir? I'm also worried about your water exchange with sponge.
 

Hushpuppy

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Don't use sponge. It will drown the plants because it holds water too well. For doing what you are talking about, you would be better to use rockwool or coco croutons.
 

fortphoenix

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I'm wondering if your plants might stay to wet with sponge in the 5 inch net pots..... seems most of the roots will be in the pots staying very wet with the sponge with only 2 weeks of veg.......... that is an easy fix with chipped coco or hydroton .......... I'm also worried about the weight of a 4 x 8 table full of water........ make sure you got the table on a heavy duty frame......... how big is your reservoir? I'm also worried about your water exchange with sponge.

well the pots are only 4" tall and the table is 7in high and i planned on flooding 3.5" high so only about a half inch of the netcup would get wet. the rest of the if the wetting comes from the 100% humidity levels from keeping the table flat so there is like an 1/8" of water in the tray of all times (the constant floods make it so it isn't stagnant water) and the other water feeding comes from the moisture on the table cover and the weight and all that is taken care of! but it would be 100% natural sponge, think of a carwash sponge its ph neutral and doesn't hold salts like other mediums and id just cut it into chunks to fit around the plant to keep it sturdy. i copied this idea from a moderator named panhead on riu who had a perpetual cycle with 8 4x8 tables, 50 plants harvesting 5lbs every week on average off 3 600w cooled hps and so he said he started with "AlBeFuct" method and perfected his own way and for a couple years he was experimenting with every medium, floods, lights and notes but he found the sponge was the best medium by far
 

fortphoenix

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Don't use sponge. It will drown the plants because it holds water too well. For doing what you are talking about, you would be better to use rockwool or coco croutons.

the man i got this idea from said he tried every method for years till he perfected the method stated above^ and he said all those mediums hold more water then sponge and you can flood as often, esp the way the sponge is set up in the net pots with the flood only going up about a half inch up the net cups
 
T

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Will it work? I don't think so. I see a myriad of problems with your plan.

After decades of growing, it is my opinion that your guy is incorrect. Sponge will and does hold far more water than any rockwool, coco or hydrotron (which is my favorite). I don't see the drain being able to pull in the O2 that the roots need either. I also think that flooding 15 minutes every hour is going to be far too often--the roots will always be in water. A good drain cycle is necessary to pull in oxygen for the roots--I don't think this set up will do that.

I have found 12/12 from seed to be a poor way to grow requiring way more plants, more work and resulting in far less bud. And few strains are ready to harvest in 8 weeks, even when vegged till sexual maturity. Plants with no veg are going to take longer--that is just the way it is. You can only hurry plants so much--10 weeks from seed is not going to be enough time for the plant to finish. However, from your replies it appears that this is the way you are going to go regardless, so let's talk about the other aspects of your grow. Tell us about your lighting and ventilation.

Don't trust everything you see/hear on the internet, especially from RUI. There is absolutely no way this guy is pulling 5 elbows every 5 weeks with 3 600W lights. Sorry, but that is simply B S and impossible.
 

fortphoenix

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Will it work? I don't think so. I see a myriad of problems with your plan.

After decades of growing, it is my opinion that your guy is incorrect. Sponge will and does hold far more water than any rockwool, coco or hydrotron (which is my favorite). I don't see the drain being able to pull in the O2 that the roots need either. I also think that flooding 15 minutes every hour is going to be far too often--the roots will always be in water. A good drain cycle is necessary to pull in oxygen for the roots--I don't think this set up will do that.

I have found 12/12 from seed to be a poor way to grow requiring way more plants, more work and resulting in far less bud. And few strains are ready to harvest in 8 weeks, even when vegged till sexual maturity. Plants with no veg are going to take longer--that is just the way it is. You can only hurry plants so much--10 weeks from seed is not going to be enough time for the plant to finish. However, from your replies it appears that this is the way you are going to go regardless, so let's talk about the other aspects of your grow. Tell us about your lighting and ventilation.

Don't trust everything you see/hear on the internet, especially from RUI. There is absolutely no way this guy is pulling 5 elbows every 5 weeks with 3 600W lights. Sorry, but that is simply B S and impossible.

well the whole reason for the flood 15min every hours is because theres hardly any medium and the water would only be touching the bottom half inch of the netcup. and idk where i said id harvest 10 weeks from seed, I'm using mother plants to use thick stemmed clones with a minimum of 6 bud sites no side branching rooting for 2 weeks then put them into flower (I'm using 8 week strains) and yes the guy pulls 5 pounds off a 4x8 using 50 of the same type of clones i just described per table with 3 highly air cooled 600w and basically puts them right on the plants, waits till they are well rooted and flowers them for 8 weeks and doesn't flush using lucas formula and hydroplex in heavy budding. he perfected this method with blue dream and a certain sour d. and its totally reasonable because theres other people who have done f&d this same way who came similar GPW. the real question was, would cloning the way i described work in the aerocloner? I'm still up in the air with the sponge, hydroton was what i was originally going to use but I've been reading about the sponges and the dont seem like a bad idea as they are ph neutral, dont hold salts, are cheap (dont have to clean them), and can be easily disposed
 

Hushpuppy

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FP; you came on and asked if your setup will work. We gave you our opinions and now you are arguing the worthiness of your chosen method. If you have full faith in your method then you should not have asked us if it will work. Rather, you should have set it up and took pictures and post it all here and say "this is what I am doing. This is where I got the idea. And I want everyone to watch my progress to see how I do."
There is not one set method for successfully growing good bud, but you will find here that most of the veterans here have done it almost every way that it can be done, and we know what does and doesn't work (for the most part, not trying to be sarcastic). But if you think this method is solid, the best thing to do is run with it and then when you are pulling 5lbs out of a 4x8 space, post the pics and wow the peeps :)

However, if you have specific questions, we are happy to help with advice :)
 

fortphoenix

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FP; you came on and asked if your setup will work. We gave you our opinions and now you are arguing the worthiness of your chosen method. If you have full faith in your method then you should not have asked us if it will work. Rather, you should have set it up and took pictures and post it all here and say "this is what I am doing. This is where I got the idea. And I want everyone to watch my progress to see how I do."
There is not one set method for successfully growing good bud, but you will find here that most of the veterans here have done it almost every way that it can be done, and we know what does and doesn't work (for the most part, not trying to be sarcastic). But if you think this method is solid, the best thing to do is run with it and then when you are pulling 5lbs out of a 4x8 space, post the pics and wow the peeps :)

However, if you have specific questions, we are happy to help with advice :)


why is it that whenever i post something on this site i can never get a straight up answer? i clearly asked a question about the way i want to clone in the aero cloner and no one answered a single question. like hemp goddess, for example, brought up the medium when there was not a single question asked on my medium then made up a random assumption i would be going from seed to harvest in 10 weeks (maybe she misunderstood something i said?) ... then you said the sponge won't work because it would get too wet, which i just explained to you why I'm probably going to use it and i just responded to your question, no ones "arguing the worthiness of your chosen method" I'm just telling you why I've picked it thus far. but in these responses no one has answered a single question. like the guy "growers 13" said he's worried about the weight of the table with the water and (while i appreciate the concern) that has nothing to do with my question... i asked a very simple 2 part question about using rapid rooters in an aerocloner and i asked about transplanting and not a single person has answered any of them. only thing thats been brought up is the damn porous sponge
 
T

The Hemp Goddess

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No, you did ask if it would work--that is the title of the thread.
 

Hushpuppy

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FP please understand that I'm not trying to bust your balls, or make you look foolish. Maybe in your mind, you had a simple question to ask, but in the writing of what you said, you didn't ask a simple question. you started with: Will this F&D S.O.G work? then you asked: would it be okay to start a clone in the aerocloner in a riot rooter? ; would this work? ; would the roots grow slower because the plug? howlong on average should i expect it to show roots? should i do a 1min on 5min off spray cycle or still keep the pump spraying 24/7? ; would it be ideal to add the net pot and sponge ; would adding the medium after 1 week in the aerocloner affect growth or shock it? what spray times would you recommend when the sponges are in?

Each of us looked at the things that you talked about and focused on those items that caught our attention which we could see issues coming from them and gave you our opinion on those things. I would have talked about every aspect of what you were asking as in your opening header statement, you asked "will this work?" But then I saw that you already had your mind set on doing this your way, so I wasn't going to spend 45minutes of my time explaining everything for you to then argue with everything I said and then do what you want to do regardless of what anyone tells you.

then you said the sponge won't work because it would get too wet, which i just explained to you why I'm probably going to use it and i just responded to your question, If you look back through my response you will see I never asked you any questions.

However, to give you a simple answer to your initial question in your last post, (as I said in my last post) there is no one right method to growing MJ successfully. Grow methodology is not a black and white thing where a particular method is wrong in every situation. I myself have created my own methods which serve me very well. My methods are a conglomerate of many methods that I used and hybridized to fit what I want. There are many variables that affect successful MJ growing.

To answer the question that you say was the only question you were asking: If the riot cubes will fit in the aerocloner ports in such a way that the spray of solution doesn't escape the aerocloner, and the spray doesn't hit and disintegrate the riot cubes, then yes it should work fine. However, none of us have ever tried this so its hard to say for certain how well this will work. If the sprayers don't cause an issue with the riot cubes and you keep the solution well aerated, it may work just fine. :) I am sorry that you didn't get the answers you wanted initially, and I hope this helps to alleviate your frustration and answer your "single" question. :)
 

fortphoenix

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FP please understand that I'm not trying to bust your balls, or make you look foolish. Maybe in your mind, you had a simple question to ask, but in the writing of what you said, you didn't ask a simple question. you started with: Will this F&D S.O.G work? then you asked: would it be okay to start a clone in the aerocloner in a riot rooter? ; would this work? ; would the roots grow slower because the plug? howlong on average should i expect it to show roots? should i do a 1min on 5min off spray cycle or still keep the pump spraying 24/7? ; would it be ideal to add the net pot and sponge ; would adding the medium after 1 week in the aerocloner affect growth or shock it? what spray times would you recommend when the sponges are in?

Each of us looked at the things that you talked about and focused on those items that caught our attention which we could see issues coming from them and gave you our opinion on those things. I would have talked about every aspect of what you were asking as in your opening header statement, you asked "will this work?" But then I saw that you already had your mind set on doing this your way, so I wasn't going to spend 45minutes of my time explaining everything for you to then argue with everything I said and then do what you want to do regardless of what anyone tells you.

then you said the sponge won't work because it would get too wet, which i just explained to you why I'm probably going to use it and i just responded to your question, If you look back through my response you will see I never asked you any questions.

However, to give you a simple answer to your initial question in your last post, (as I said in my last post) there is no one right method to growing MJ successfully. Grow methodology is not a black and white thing where a particular method is wrong in every situation. I myself have created my own methods which serve me very well. My methods are a conglomerate of many methods that I used and hybridized to fit what I want. There are many variables that affect successful MJ growing.

To answer the question that you say was the only question you were asking: If the riot cubes will fit in the aerocloner ports in such a way that the spray of solution doesn't escape the aerocloner, and the spray doesn't hit and disintegrate the riot cubes, then yes it should work fine. However, none of us have ever tried this so its hard to say for certain how well this will work. If the sprayers don't cause an issue with the riot cubes and you keep the solution well aerated, it may work just fine. :) I am sorry that you didn't get the answers you wanted initially, and I hope this helps to alleviate your frustration and answer your "single" question. :)

idk why you automatically assumed i had my mind "set on doing it this way" if i had my mind set on this way then i wouldn't have asked the questions. I'm asking if it would work because if it does then it would work well with my resources and my goals. no one on any of the other websites i asked these questions on think I'm "set on doing this" because if i was i wouldn't be asking the questions, obviously if the methods I've mentioned don't work then i won't do it. I also know that theres no set way any one should grow, which again, is the reason why I'm asking these questions, to see if my proposed plans would actually work and be productive. the questions were pretty simple though "would it be okay to start a clone in the aerocloner in a riot rooter? ; would this work? ; would the roots grow slower because the plug? howlong on average should i expect it to show roots? should i do a 1min on 5min off spray cycle or still keep the pump spraying 24/7?" and even if someone could only answer 1 or 2 parts of the questions id be appreciative or just dont say anything if you dont have any input with any value. with that being said, i do appreciate your response but the riot rooter is more of a sponge like material thats like less disintegratable (idk if thats even a word) and the aerocloner would have neoprene covers. i do know there are people who have done grows along the lines of what i described its just hard to find them so i was hoping maybe 1 or 2 would maybe see this thread and share some advice
 

Hushpuppy

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I didn't assume you had your mind set on doing this your way. I deduced from your fervent defense of the individual components as people responded to your questions. Several of us gave you advice and you fervently defended the items in question and flatly denied the advice in your response at post #9

Again, I am not trying to argue or bust you on anything but if you have questions then you have to expect honest answers. However, this is an opinion forum and while many of the veteran growers here will give you honest answers to the best of our knowledge, that doesn't mean that "our way is the only way". Unfortunately, since we don't believe this to be a better way of doing it, we don't have the details to answer too many of your questions. That is why I stated to change the sponge material to something else, because if you go with the sponge material, I believe you will have significant failures to the point that the rest of it won't matter.
the questions were pretty simple though "would it be okay to start a clone in the aerocloner in a riot rooter? Yes it could possibly work if the sprayers don't disintegrate the riot plugs, and if there is room for them to sit beneath the neoprene covers to keep the spray in, and if the plugs don't prevent oxygen from getting to the newly developing roots ; would this work? again, it might but its hard to say ; would the roots grow slower because the plug? No the roots will grow at the same rate that they would without the plug, unless the plug stays too wet and isn't able to absorb oxygen which prevents the roots from drowning howlong on average should i expect it to show roots? If the roots don't drown then they should show roots coming through the plug at some point between 10-30days depending on the strain. should i do a 1min on 5min off spray cycle or still keep the pump spraying 24/7?" Given that the cuttings are in the riot plugs that will stay wet, unless the aerocloner has some sort of screen to hold the plugs so that they don't get saturated and fall off, you may want to spray for 5 minutes and be off for an hour.
 

fortphoenix

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I didn't assume you had your mind set on doing this your way. I deduced from your fervent defense of the individual components as people responded to your questions. Several of us gave you advice and you fervently defended the items in question and flatly denied the advice in your response at post #9

Again, I am not trying to argue or bust you on anything but if you have questions then you have to expect honest answers. However, this is an opinion forum and while many of the veteran growers here will give you honest answers to the best of our knowledge, that doesn't mean that "our way is the only way". Unfortunately, since we don't believe this to be a better way of doing it, we don't have the details to answer too many of your questions. That is why I stated to change the sponge material to something else, because if you go with the sponge material, I believe you will have significant failures to the point that the rest of it won't matter.
the questions were pretty simple though "would it be okay to start a clone in the aerocloner in a riot rooter? Yes it could possibly work if the sprayers don't disintegrate the riot plugs, and if there is room for them to sit beneath the neoprene covers to keep the spray in, and if the plugs don't prevent oxygen from getting to the newly developing roots ; would this work? again, it might but its hard to say ; would the roots grow slower because the plug? No the roots will grow at the same rate that they would without the plug, unless the plug stays too wet and isn't able to absorb oxygen which prevents the roots from drowning howlong on average should i expect it to show roots? If the roots don't drown then they should show roots coming through the plug at some point between 10-30days depending on the strain. should i do a 1min on 5min off spray cycle or still keep the pump spraying 24/7?" Given that the cuttings are in the riot plugs that will stay wet, unless the aerocloner has some sort of screen to hold the plugs so that they don't get saturated and fall off, you may want to spray for 5 minutes and be off for an hour.

i wouldn't say i was defending them i would say i was just giving an explanation for my reasoning on the set up i might do because i didnt go into enough detail in my original post. like when hemp goddess said i was flooding way too often i just explained to her why i was flooding often (because the water would only be raised a half inch above the bottom of net cup which i didnt go into detail about in my original post) so i just explained to her why i wanted do it. and the reason i want to keep floods frequent with less medium is because I've read that when in hydro its good to feed them while still getting the most amount oxygen as many times and as frequent as possible but after hearing peoples concerns with the sponge I'm looking at alternatives like hydroton and lava rock (with less frequent flooding) but thank you those are the types of opinions/answers i was looking for
 

Hushpuppy

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I think you will find that Hydroton(l.e.c.a., clay pebbles) will work the best for your type of set up as they do hold some moisture after being flooded which keeps the roots from drying out between floodings. You will have to experiment with your setup to find the right balance. I can guarantee that you will change your initial setup several times before you settle on the methods that work best for you, I know I did.

Once you get set up and going, please take pics and post here in a journal so that we can see your progress. We like to see growers succeed. :)
 

fortphoenix

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I think you will find that Hydroton(l.e.c.a., clay pebbles) will work the best for your type of set up as they do hold some moisture after being flooded which keeps the roots from drying out between floodings. You will have to experiment with your setup to find the right balance. I can guarantee that you will change your initial setup several times before you settle on the methods that work best for you, I know I did.

Once you get set up and going, please take pics and post here in a journal so that we can see your progress. We like to see growers succeed. :)

yeah I just like the thought of the automation of the aerocloner but the more i think about it i might just use the root riot plugs and clone them in a humidi dome (even though the lids probably won't fit because of the clone size) then throw hydroton and the clone (with plug) in the net pots for flower... but even then I'm still concerned with transplant shock because the clones will be going from a clone box on 18/6 one day, to a f&d tray in a netcup with hydroton on 12/12 with lucas formula the next day. should i be worried about this? how much could this shock or stunt growth? but trust me in the past 2 or 3 months I've switched from wanting to do dwc to aeroponics to supersoil then back to aeroponics lol but now i feel f&d is best for my needs and resources and if i ever wanted to do aero i could just covert the botanicare trays into an aero/nft hybrid so its perfect
 

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Glad this thread turned itself around. Cool and Green Mojo.
 

Hushpuppy

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Yeah the automation isn't usually a problem, you just have to make sure all of the elements will jive together. They should take the transferring and switchover without issue as long as the roots are well developed and you don't damage any roots. I think you will find starting them in the rooter plugs under a dome will work better than in an aerocloner. The aerocloners are awesome if you are going to go to soft "soil" mediums but difficult going to hard soilless mediums. And it will take some experimenting if you don't know anyone doing the exact or very similar setup. Do you already have the table and netpots? can you take and post a pic?
 

fortphoenix

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Yeah the automation isn't usually a problem, you just have to make sure all of the elements will jive together. They should take the transferring and switchover without issue as long as the roots are well developed and you don't damage any roots. I think you will find starting them in the rooter plugs under a dome will work better than in an aerocloner. The aerocloners are awesome if you are going to go to soft "soil" mediums but difficult going to hard soilless mediums. And it will take some experimenting if you don't know anyone doing the exact or very similar setup. Do you already have the table and netpots? can you take and post a pic?

yeah thats a great point, thats the other reason why I've been leaning way from the aerocloner because the roots in rockwool/rooters plugs are more confined to the plug and it would just be easier to place on top of hydroton and cover it as opposed to the aerocloner roots that are all over the place and almost guaranteed to be damaged in hydroton. So you think the plants should be okay with the change huh? I'm still nervous to do it lol (from cloner to flowering under 12/12 over night) and just one last question I'm kind of having a hard time finding... if i plan on going straight to flower from the clone box (2 weeks exact in the clone box) would i add lucas formula to the clone box water once they root? how many ppm's would you recommend?

but I'm currently waiting on the tables heres a pic to give you an example of what it would look like (without scrog) (pic belongs to "alpha phase")

https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=338884&d=1446764539
https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=338884&d=1446764539
 

Hushpuppy

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Unfortunately I can't see the pics because the site wants me to sign in. But that's not a problem. I did a very similar setup as you are looking to do with the enclosed table. I built my tables and used larger, net bottomed pots. It worked well enough but I eventually moved to using the large totes so that my plants could sit lower and get bigger.

You will find with clones, once they root, they quickly go right to their full tilt veg function. A lot of people confuse clones with babies of the mother plant, but that is a false premise. The clone is not a baby or offspring of the "mother". It is the same age, same genetics, same phenotype as the mother plant. It is virtually the same plant just with new roots. If the mother plant is 10weeks old when the cutting is taken and rooted, then the cutting and subsequent clone is also 10wks old, even though it appears much younger.

Also, and this is important, If the "mother" plant has reached sexual maturity, then the clone will also be sexually mature. So it will be able to go straight to flowering as soon as it has rooted well. However, given the way you are looking at doing the process, I would say you need to make sure you have a good sized root ball developed on the clones before you flip them to 12/12. Either, keep them in the cloner long enough to develop significant roots, or keep them in veg for 7-10 days after you have moved them to the tables so that they have more time to develop good roots.

This is critical to the growth and production of the plants. without good root systems, the plants will be unable to produce much. When feeding them, the feeding can advance faster than for seedlings but you still should start out with a weaker solution for the first feeding, and get a rooting tonic to use along with the standard nutrients. I use Technaflora's Root66 and Thrive Alive to get the kids a good start. Just a dab will do ya. probably about 1-2ml per gallon of solution. The instructions always say to use more but they want you to buy more.

You can start adding nutrients to the cloning water while they are in the rooting process as soon as you see a few roots pop out of the plugs. I would recommend for the first feeding, go with about 300ppm before adding in the root tonics. Then once you move them to the tables, bump up to 600-700ppm and still give one more of the root tonic shots, give them at least 7 days on the table before you flip them (unless they show tremendous growth). Then you will want to bump up to at least 1000ppm for flowering. :)
 

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